18-11-2001 07:43									#1
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I think that Joan of Arc was a weak choice for the Leader of the French, a was curious as to what others thought. My choice is Napoleon.

	18-11-2001 07:56									#2
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Has to be Napoleon, I loved him in that old Bugs Bunny cartoon

	18-11-2001 08:00									#3
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Joan of Arc reversed the fate of an entire war through her leadership.
Napoleon though got his ass kicked twice.

I don't think this is really a challenge

	18-11-2001 08:29									#4
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Definitely Napoleon.
Although, if you take a look at this thread

	18-11-2001 11:01									#5
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i like de gaulle

	18-11-2001 12:29									#6
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Clovis.

	18-11-2001 13:07									#7
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No, no, no! NOT Napolean! Sure, he did some memorable things, but the most memorable man in French history is none other than Charles de Gaulle!

A few things you just have to love about Charles de Gaulle:
-- Fought the Germans in WWI
-- Led the Free French through the Nazi occupation
-- Became the first President of the Fifth Republic
-- Solved France's foreign policy woes
-- Unilaterally withdrew France from NATO

Among other awesome things!

He was a true patriot and an excellent statesman. He's a hero to the French and he's truly a man to admire for his strength and courage from WWI until his death in 1970. Go, de Gaulle, go!

	18-11-2001 14:35									#8
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Wait, what about Cardinal Richelieu?

W

	18-11-2001 15:10									#9
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Definetly Louis XIV- it was during his time that France as we know it acquired its identity. (Well........ at least arguably so)

	18-11-2001 15:31									#10
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Richelieu! Wretch, that's a great call!

But Joan IS the patron saint of France. Historians debate whether she was an actual great leader or some kind of living propaganda/good luck charm. But either way, her influence definitely prompted a major change in in the history of what we now call France. (Personally, I think she was what we'd call schizophrenic nowadays. In her time, there wasn't much to be done about that.)

In the same vein, why Abraham Lincoln? Why not George Washington?

	18-11-2001 15:48									#11
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I remember a comic strip I saw in MAD magazine.

Servant: Charles de Gaulle is the greatest man in France!
de Gaulle: That ees so.
Servant: Charles de Gaulle is the greatest man in THE WORLD!
de Gaulle: That ees so..
Servant: Why, only GOD is greater than you!
de Gaulle: *look of utter shock*

Servant: *Imprisoned* What did I say? WHAT DID I SAY!?

	18-11-2001 18:06									#12
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No doubt about this one, Joan of Arc should defently stay in the game

	18-11-2001 18:13									#13
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quote: Originally posted by IncreduloDriver the most memorable man in French history is none other than Charles de Gaulle!

THIS is really amazing Sure, nice statesman, but not deserving all the honours he is credited. That's just boosted by nationalistic feelings (AGAINST Germans, AGAINST Americans -NATO-, France superpower, France nuclear power, "vive la grandeur". When you get beaten and you are clearly not the best anymore, it hurts).
Joan D'Arc. I mean, every nation which frees itself from external control (AGAINST the English, this time) tend to "stretch" hystory records in order to exalt some wannabe heroes, and to stress its "unicity", "holiness" and moral superiority. You just look for the more viable "flag".

On the other hand...

Napoleon showing how to rule an army to the entire Europe? He was a (superb) military leader most of all, but... he diffused the ideals of the French Revolution everywhere he went, putting the seeds of democracy, freedom, equality and national identity everywhere in the old continent.
Charlemagne!!! History lessons, anyone? He just:
1) produced a (short lived, but immensely important) EMPIRE in Europe after centuries of barbarism, setting the new course of european "politics";
2) christianized (with sword, blood and deaths, I agree) the Germans, taking them into european cultural mainstream;
3) contributed stopping forever Arab penetration in Europe from Spain, setting the future of Europe far from Islam,
4) started a cultural "renaissance" (again, short lived) in Aachen, his capital.
5) ...

As you guessed, I voted for Charlemagne

	18-11-2001 18:37									#14
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Charlemagne. Starting an empire that (briefly) civilized Europe for the first time in centuries is no small feat. Besides, the French love the guy.

Even though it's not an option, Laetitia Casta would make a nice leader... Or did they already put her in as a war leader?

	18-11-2001 19:02									#15
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Napoleon, in the spirit of civ 1.

	18-11-2001 19:20									#16
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Well, since both De Gaulle and Napoleon were rightwing dictators, I think I should be leader of the French.

Ooh la la...! Convinced yet? I can do the Can-Can as well....

	18-11-2001 19:20									#17
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I voted for Charles De Gaulle, just bcos he is getting WAY too little votes than he deserve. Maybe his anti-American stance is the reason behind the lack of support he is getting here.

	18-11-2001 20:19									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Sun Zi 36 I voted for Charles De Gaulle, just bcos he is getting WAY too little votes than he deserve. Maybe his anti-American stance is the reason behind the lack of support he is getting here.

I kinda "slammed" him in the leader race, and I am European. Please understand me: IMHO he was a GOOD statesman, but not to be taken in the Olympus...

	18-11-2001 20:38									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Sun Zi 36 I voted for Charles De Gaulle, just bcos he is getting WAY too little votes than he deserve. Maybe his anti-American stance is the reason behind the lack of support he is getting here.

He was also an authoritarian, formed the rightwing "Rally of the French People" and had a reputation for severe arrogance.

He looked like a French Hitler:



Ooh la la!

	18-11-2001 21:00									#20
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quote: No, no, no! NOT Napolean! Sure, he did some memorable things, but the most memorable man in French history is none other than Charles de Gaulle! A few things you just have to love about Charles de Gaulle: -- Fought the Germans in WWI -- Led the Free French through the Nazi occupation -- Became the first President of the Fifth Republic -- Solved France's foreign policy woes -- Unilaterally withdrew France from NATO Among other awesome things!

Grrrr how can you like what de Gaulle did after WWII?

After all us western nations formed an alliance, designed in very large part almost just to protect France ... what does he do? He causes NO end of trouble and eventually kicks us out of Paris and pulls out of it!!!

Why? Because he can't handle France not being undisputed # 1 and has no concept of teamwork. His idea of teamwork: France is no longer powerful enough to be # 1, so harness ourselves to Germany / Europe so we can get their power yet be in control.

I swear France ruins itself by insisting on being seen as # 1, and screwing over all its friends in an attempt for glory.

	18-11-2001 21:10									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Sun Zi 36 I voted for Charles De Gaulle, just bcos he is getting WAY too little votes than he deserve. Maybe his anti-American stance is the reason behind the lack of support he is getting here.

i voted for him. how was he anti-american?


hey nato-try the Off Topic if you like politics and international affairs. there's a thread for new users over there

	18-11-2001 21:20									#22
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Gee d-dudy, I just responded to the posts in this thread in pretty much the same spirit as they were.

Sorry my post, but not the others or this entire thread, offends you so much.

	18-11-2001 21:25									#23
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quote: Originally posted by nato Gee d-dudy, I just responded to the posts in this thread in pretty much the same spirit as they were. Sorry my post, but not the others or this entire thread, offends you so much.

offended? i asked a question and then pointed out the off topic as a place for you to post also. i wasn't offended i was just wondering what he did anti-american

	18-11-2001 21:30									#24
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I also dont think he is the "best leader". (De Gaulle). But he only had 4 votes! So I voted for him.

I think "French Hitler" is very harsh. That is just a false exaggeration. Lucky i dont think many French participate in English forums. There would sure have been retaliatary comments for saying that they elected someone like Hitler as president. Its like saying Bush is American Hitler. It sure would have been insulting. Please be considerate.

How is he anti-American? That's explained by nato. The comments seem to discredit DeGaulle for withdrawing from a voluntary alliance, which i disagree. Sovereign nations can join or withdraw an alliance as they see fit i dont think other nations, esp America, is in a position to tell them wat to do. Every nation is entitled to pursue its own glory and i dont think his means is illegitimate in any way.

	18-11-2001 21:48									#25
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My bad d-dudy. I thought you were saying I shouldn't be posting off topic stuff. Sorry.

	18-11-2001 22:24									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Sun Zi 36 I think "French Hitler" is very harsh. That is just a false exaggeration. Lucky i dont think many French participate in English forums. There would sure have been retaliatary comments for saying that they elected someone like Hitler as president. Its like saying Bush is American Hitler. It sure would have been insulting. Please be considerate.

Yeah whatever, his wild suggestion only drawn from de Gaulle's physical appreance is stupid enough not to deserve any discussion beyond this point.

quote: How is he anti-American? That's explained by nato. The comments seem to discredit DeGaulle for withdrawing from a voluntary alliance, which i disagree. Sovereign nations can join or withdraw an alliance as they see fit i dont think other nations, esp America, is in a position to tell them wat to do. Every nation is entitled to pursue its own glory and i dont think his means is illegitimate in any way.

	18-11-2001 22:49									#27
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Ok this post is very OT and not about Civ3.

One way de Gaulle was anti-American was when he said we were a bigger threat than the USSR. I don't think that was fair ... it really meant we were a bigger threat to their preeminance I think.

Sun Zi - You are totally right, alliances should be voluntary. I would never say the US has the right to dictate to others. If you can't get out, then it would have been more like the Warsaw Pact.

However NATO was really a very good deal for the French. After the war they were in a pretty bad postition ... one statesmen described them as "on their knees begging for an alliance", they were in such a bad spot. France caused many big headaches during the formation ... but it all came out good for them.

Then they turn around and kick everyone out, and withdraw! Grrr.

Yes of course they have the right to withdraw and seek their glory. However, they were very rude about it all. If they withdraw from something very cool that helped protect them and act rude about it ... don't be surprised that it leads to bad feelings.

I love France, they are a part of the western family ... but they are a part with a bad attitude. France MUST be first, friends be damned.

	18-11-2001 23:07									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Sun Zi 36 I also dont think he is the "best leader". (De Gaulle). But he only had 4 votes! So I voted for him. I think "French Hitler" is very harsh. That is just a false exaggeration. Lucky i dont think many French participate in English forums. There would sure have been retaliatary comments for saying that they elected someone like Hitler as president. Its like saying Bush is American Hitler. It sure would have been insulting. Please be considerate.

I said he LOOKS like a French Hitler, you foo'. Read my post!

Besides, the real resistors against the Nazis were the communist underground, the Resistance. While the rest of France gave up at the first sign of trouble, it was the resistors who helped to beat off the Nazis.

"Ooh la la!"

	18-11-2001 23:48									#29
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quote: Originally posted by nato One way de Gaulle was anti-American was when he said we were a bigger threat than the USSR.

thankyou

	19-11-2001 00:02									#30
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Just to make little side-note:

For France there is only to usefully leaders to civ games: Napoleon and Joan d'Arc

The reason: A civ game should only use well-know (and well-liked) leaders. I don't think I know many who (without looking in a history book) can tell who those other people are. From France history I can only see two leaders most people know, and those are Napoleon and Joan d'Arc.