18-11-2001 15:43									#1
	Expansion Pack Civ: Canada Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Just some initial thoughts... Not high on most people's lists but some of us Canucks wouldn't mind including it in.

Cities (Metropolitan Area Population as of 1996 Census)
Ottawa-Hull 1,010,498
Toronto 4,263,757
Montreal 3,326,510
Vancouver 1,831,665
Edmonton 862,597
Calgary 821,628
Quebec City 671,889
Winnipeg 667,209
Hamilton 624,360
Halifax 332,518
Victoria 304,287
Saskatoon 219,056
Regina 193,652
St. John’s 174,051
Fredericton 78,950
Charlottetown 57,224
Whitehorse 21,808
Yellowknife 17,275
Iqualuit 5,000*
Inuvik 3,296

*Not included in 1996 census. Approximation as stated on Iqualuit’s website.

Alternatively, we could arrange the cities by chronology which would change the order substantially. I'm not sure what the "ideal" number of cities are.

Head of Government: Pierre Elliot Trudeau

Regardless of your political stripe, I would argue that Trudeau is the most famous political leader Canada has ever produced.


Military Leaders:
General Sir Julian Byng (Vimy Ridge)
General Arthur Currie (Passchendaele)
Lieutenant E.L.M. Burns (Passchendaele)
General Harry Crear (Normandy)

I am not a military historian, and this only covers the army. Someone with more knowledge could help in this area. Here's a good website:

http://www.cyndislist.com/milcan.htm

As to a civ-specific unit, I was thinking maybe a "Fur Trader" or "Voyageur". This would occur at the very beginning of the game and act as a Settler, except for the fact that it could cover more ground per turn (2+?). This would simulate the expansive nature of Canada but I wouldn't want it to be a military unit.

Just brainstorming...

	18-11-2001 18:43									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

An American "Civilization" is already stretching it a bit, but this is just plain silly

	19-11-2001 18:53									#3
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Very productive response...

I'm sure there are a lot of gamers out there who want to include there own nation, regardless of whether it qualifies under someone else's definition of "civilization".

	20-11-2001 01:48									#4
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Hey Hey! And the special unit would be--- The Mounty.

	20-11-2001 11:38									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

A logical UU might be the much touted Avro Arrow, Jet fighter with one of the stats bumped up a touch.

	20-11-2001 21:01									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Not again those puny canadians!
You've already ennervated everyone here on the Forum when we still thought we had some influence on the In-Game Civs.
Live with it: Canadians live in the woods. If you want to, add Canada in your individual game or make an own "Canada-mod"!
We made a poll about which Civs to include and Canada was FAR from being a popular choice! Austria almost came in, yet I don't go around demanding it SHOULD be in. I'll simply add it for myself if I wish too.

	20-11-2001 22:57									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Canada is a mix of other cultures too much to be even in the top 30. Of course it does have it particularities, but not more than a looooooot of others. As same as a village as particularities compared to its country. Canada is easily included in some more general cultures.

And Jason, don't talk to me about the Arrow plane, I'm almost gonna cry... but I think (possibly) it was in great part made specifically by a minority in Canada (french speaking part). I'm basing this on the fact that aeronotics is our speciality in Quebec and not in the rest of Canada at all. Flying frogs
It's why we have Bombardier I guess...

But nevermind all that, we are a mix of some other cultures, and not a distinctive culture by itself.

	21-11-2001 03:23									#8
	Increase the size of your Attachments

UU = improved infantryman. Higher attack stats.

	24-11-2001 07:09									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Not again those puny canadians! You've already ennervated everyone here on the Forum when we still thought we had some influence on the In-Game Civs. Live with it: Canadians live in the woods. If you want to, add Canada in your individual game or make an own "Canada-mod"! We made a poll about which Civs to include and Canada was FAR from being a popular choice! Austria almost came in, yet I don't go around demanding it SHOULD be in. I'll simply add it for myself if I wish too.

Wow...someone's definetly bitter...

Vitmore

	24-11-2001 20:14									#10
	Tired of ads?

Reminds me of a guy I went to university with. He was from Italy. One day he was bragging about Italy's great history and how Canada wasn't a real country because it had no history. I reminded him it was Canadian troops who helped to liberate his country. He denied there were ever Canadian troops in Italy. We get no respect.

	27-11-2001 00:22									#11
	Got spare money?

It's not because we helped Italy that Italians should say Canada is a civilisation... Canada has no history? Well it has less, that's all. The argument isn't there since a civilization with less history isn't less a civ because it has less history but because it didn't had the time to differentiate itself as much as annother civilization may have in 2000 years.

	01-12-2001 06:54									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I agree, Canada doesn't have enough of a unique culture to use as a civ. What the heck would be the UU?

Now the Aussies are FAR more interesting. A bushman UU would be cool--functions as a bowman upgrade, but attacks with boomerangs.

	01-12-2001 08:28									#13
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I don't think including a Canadian civilization is any more absurd than including a Polish civ. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

	02-12-2001 03:16									#14
	What priority on the Civ expansion list would they have? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I don't know if I'd put Canada on a rank higher than #48 (assuming the original 16 are included). Please convince me otherwise.

	02-12-2001 04:19									#15
	Remove this text

Canada covers ~10 million km^2 (2nd largest country in the world)

Canada is far more distinct from Britain than Australia is

Canada had the 3rd largest navy in the world by 1945

Canadian troops were the most feared force on the WWI battlefields

Canada is one of the few countries in the world that manages to operate bilingually on almost all levels

Canada invented socialised health care

Canada invented peacekeeping

Canada was the first former British colony to peacefully make its way to independence, and provided an example to the rest of what was to become the British Commonwealth

We kicked your ass in 1812

	02-12-2001 04:23									#16
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Not that I'd put Canada above the Spanish, Mongols, Scots, Vikings, Dutch, Carthaginians, Phoenicians or Portuguese, but I can't possibly imagine the Australians getting higher billing.

	03-12-2001 02:57									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Not that I'd put Canada above the Spanish, Mongols, Scots, Vikings, Dutch, Carthaginians, Phoenicians or Portuguese, but I can't possibly imagine the Australians getting higher billing.

Canadians ahead of Koreans, Turks, Khmer, and Huns?

	03-12-2001 03:48									#18
	Inflate your Upload Space

Canada's as worthy as a zillion other potential civs, but quit stuff like "We beat you in 1812" etc.

It'll just start stupid fights and lead to bad feelings. We were still a pretty organic part of Britain at the time. While the conventional US view of the war isn't that accurate, stuff like "We burned Washington, nyah nyah" from fellow Canadians makes me sigh. Such things have to be viewed in early nineteenth century perspective.

Anyway, historical rant /off.

	03-12-2001 05:00									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Incidentally, for UU I would suggest a 7.10.1 infantry. 8.10.1 would probobly be a little excessive.

	03-12-2001 07:33									#20
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Jason Canada's as worthy as a zillion other potential civs, but quit stuff like "We beat you in 1812" etc. It'll just start stupid fights and lead to bad feelings. We were still a pretty organic part of Britain at the time. While the conventional US view of the war isn't that accurate, stuff like "We burned Washington, nyah nyah" from fellow Canadians makes me sigh. Such things have to be viewed in early nineteenth century perspective. Anyway, historical rant /off.

Ummm....I was kidding....

Anyone who seriously gets worked up about a 190 year-old war which preceded the most trusting international relationship in modern times needs to chill.

	03-12-2001 07:35									#21
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by siredgar Canadians ahead of Koreans, Turks, Khmer, and Huns?

Ahead of Khmer and Koreans, behind Turks and Huns

	03-12-2001 08:50									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I've seen a ton of extremely non-chilled flame-wars about that exact subject, actually.

	03-12-2001 10:27									#23
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Ok, let's look at the objective data. Canada is the second largest country in the world. Yet it is also one of the most peaceful. So a good civ mod would be some reduction of corruption or other penalties for a large civ. Also, Canada is effective at dealing with people from other civs, so some sort of assimilation bonus might work in the game. As for the "you don't even have a culture" jibe, that is from people with no conception of any culture that isn't based on hollywood or cheese. Yes, it's possible to have a culture that doesn't involve millenia of treating others badly (ie killing them). (Though the iroquois might say otherwise) As for a UU, maybe an early game voyageur, but rather a mid-game shock infantyrman, and extra attack point or something. Think Vimy. Failing that, maybe some sort of resource bonus.

	03-12-2001 10:32									#24
	Inflate your Upload Space

My guess for traits would be religious industrious or religious commercial.

Religious for "orderliness," what can I say. Commercial or industrious to represent prosperity. I'm not sure which I'd rather have. Probobly commercial.

Good UU would be WWI era infantry, not sure what the best title would be, but 7.10.1 seems like good stats. Little extra kick without it being unreasonable.

One drawback to this is that you can't upgrade to UU... and not being able to upgrade to infantry from riflemen would be a *****! Trust me, as the French it's a pain not being able to upgrade pikemen.

	10-12-2001 11:25									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think the Canadian UU would have to be the mountie it could be an upgraded version of the cavalry.

As for Canada being a worthy civ...It was included in CTP, mind you so were a lot of others.

Arguing over this is pointless...including a civ is designed to appeal to a certain segment of the gaming population, the more included civs the better everyone can relate to the game.

That being said Canada is a G8 country that has a very clearly defined history. Canada invented peacekeeping and includes many promenant figures over the last 2 centuries as it's citizens including Alexander Graham Bell, Banting and Best (Nobel prize winners, discovered insulin), Lester B. Pearson (Nobel Peace prize winner, invented peacekeeping).

How exactly is Australia more worthy than Canada? Canada is the 2nd largest landmass, member of NATO, NORAD and never a penal colony.

I think everyone who wants their country included has a case so bashing countries is pointless.

BTW Wernazuma III I don't think anyone here is DEMANDING anything...just throwing out ideas. Not everyone knows how to make mods so I have to rely on someone else...that's what the ideas are for .

Last edited by PMGretzky on 10-12-2001 at 14:00

	10-12-2001 14:52									#26
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Puritan Very productive response... I'm sure there are a lot of gamers out there who want to include there own nation, regardless of whether it qualifies under someone else's definition of "civilization".

Puritan, this is the kind of people I get annoying with. The kind of off hand dismissal of Americans and Canadians is the sort of sentiment I'm pissed off about and is a major topic of discussion in my other thread.

But whatever. People can choose to stick their head in the sand and pretend we don't exist outside their myopic little world.

To us, they don't exist either, so it works out. And we've got the power

	13-12-2001 04:23									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

i like canada just fine so the rest of you big headed americans...BACK OFF!

their isn't any need to get our panites up in a bundle if the canuks want their own civ in the game (definitly with color red). but i would suggest, if this isn't already being put to use, that the canadians work among yourselves and put out a canadian civ. beside, sooner or later when i make an acutrate, kickass map of north america, we will need some people north of the border.

	16-12-2001 01:59									#28
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Very cool idea guys! I love the UU as shock infantry, just like Vimy - Bravo!

As for traits, I would definately say industrious and commercial. I don't think religious is a good one, as the Yanks are much more religious than us, and it isn't one of their traits. You could also change commercial to scientific, we've had more than our fair share of inventions.

It should be easier for Canadians to build hospitals, but on the flip side, there should be a mandatory tax man in every city!

I'd definately download a Canadian civ, I would also go for an Australian one too. Two civs that deserve more play in this game than the Indians or Iriquios.

	16-12-2001 08:28									#29
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Live with it: Canadians live in the woods.

oh! thats right! thats why we're all using COMPUTERS!

	16-12-2001 08:39									#30
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: As for traits, I would definately say industrious and commercial. I don't think religious is a good one, as the Yanks are much more religious than us, and it isn't one of their traits. You could also change commercial to scientific, we've had more than our fair share of inventions

Well:

Religious was a very good idea. It represents the fact that our society is much more "stable" than a lot of other societies. There's always been a fairly strong emphasis on Peace, Order and Good Government up here. No violent revolutions etc, which is well-represented by a Religious civ's orderly transition from one government form to another. I think the second civ trait should be Industrious. Canada has a long history of giant public works projects.