18-11-2001 22:10									#1
	What is enough to prevent city defections? Increase the size of your Attachments

The subject line should say it all. I'm starting to get greatly annoyed by the defections. I'd like to hear about what you, through experience, think is a large enough amount of military units in different situations to prevent defections. One unit per population? Two? Does the ADM or health of the units matter?

Do you think there's a unit amount that will guarantee the city not to defect?

I think it's not good that Firaxis has not disclosed the formula for defections or corruption. Strategy gaming should not IMHO contain intuitive elements in this sense. The probability of any event should be calculable, after which it's up to the player to choose to take the risk or not, like for example in the case of combat. Otherwise performance becomes less dependant on skill and more dependant on luck.

	18-11-2001 23:39									#2
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It's defininitely NOT culture, despite what the military advisor says when it happens. I had a Zulu city defect to me, pre-1AD. In 1550, it went back. Over half the citizenry was mine by then, th place was producing 21 culture per turn on its own, and my overall culture is at least twice theirs. I had five units (one was artillery) in the city, with population of 12. Some clue as to what causes this either way would be useful. Incidentally the Zulu did not have Espionage, so the city was not subverted.

	19-11-2001 01:32									#3
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If you don't want a city to switch sides on you... build a Wonder in it...

I've never had a City switch sides that has a wonder built in it.

	19-11-2001 02:28									#4
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On the topis of defecting cities, i have a idea but need some backup info. Yes i have looked in the manual but didnt find anything. When a unit is created that reduces the cities population in a mixed civ city, does it remove a citizen that claims the old civ as nationality or your civ. If it removes a citizen claiming the old civ nationality first, wouldn't creating/ drafting some units to reduce city size help? Thus making the percentage of citizens in that city that claim your civ's nationality much greater. Which i believe would decrease the chance of it reverting back to your enemy after u capture it.

Just starting to play Civ3 but have been reading the boards for a while. Anyone know if this idea would work?

	19-11-2001 03:37									#5
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quote: Originally posted by napalm010 If it removes a citizen claiming the old civ nationality first, wouldn't creating/ drafting some units to reduce city size help? Thus making the percentage of citizens in that city that claim your civ's nationality much greater. Which i believe would decrease the chance of it reverting back to your enemy after u capture it. Just starting to play Civ3 but have been reading the boards for a while. Anyone know if this idea would work?

That's intrepid thinking there! I think it's kind of a system exploitation - I'd just as soon they fix the defection model a bit. But until they do, it not only fixes it but produces units you can use against the AI! I will try this soon as I am beginning a conquest of the Aztec continent and give it a shot...

Venger

	19-11-2001 04:14									#6
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Things that help prevent defections. (partly memory from a Soren Johnson chat, partly experience from losing lots of cities).

This does not cover resisting cities, which are I think a thousand times more difficult to hold on too.

Anyway, here's a list, +'s help, -'s hurt.

+ culture of your city
+ culture of your nearby cities
- culture of their nearby cities
+ your total culture
- their total culture
+ progressive government (I think, maybe just for resistors)
+ road link to rest of your civ (don't know if they have to be roads on your territory or
+ garrisoned units (just a small help, though).
+ courthouse
+ WLTKD
- disorder

I also think there's a certain random probability chance per turn in certain cases, either that or a weird hidden cumulative effect.

In my current game I've built three very isolated distant cities. They kept getting absorbed by the adjacent civs. But I'm a weenie, and will reload older saves to see if I can save them. Well, I've been able to hold onto them by rush-building all the cultural improvements I can as fast as possible. (size 5 city with university, go figure). Even then, one city was lost, but I found it was retained with a WLTKD.

Finally, in the war I was conducting just the other night, I capture the Aztec capital. had a 20-ish population, most resisting. I garrisoned with 8 or so tanks. Went into disorder. Then, two turns later, is was culturally absorbed... BY THE IROQUOIS!

ER

	19-11-2001 09:30									#7
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Dont forget if in a Republic or Democracy, military units have no positive effect on unhappy people when garrisoned in city. The rules for both goverments say that no units can be used as military police.

	19-11-2001 09:57									#8
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I have been fortunate enough to only have one city defect in my entire time playing. It was a small outpost in the middle of a superior civilization, and I knew it would defect eventually. Other than that, its never happened. I always thought it was because I was culturally superior. From what has been said here, it doesn't sound like that is completely true. Of course, I've never had far-flung civilizations spanning the whole globe, though I have had island outposts which have NEVER been absorbed.

	19-11-2001 13:32									#9
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i've never lost one of my own cities to defection, i usually lose the enemy cities that i capture, so here's my solution: if you plan to take some enemy city, make a settler and some extra workers. as soon as you capture the city, raze it. then take your settler and build one of YOUR cities right on that spot and put those extra workers that you built in the city too, to increase the population quickly.

after you raze an enemy city, take those workers that are created by the razing and send them to your other cities and add them to those cities. foreign workers don't like working for you, so you just relocate them. that's how i handle the ai cities most of the time. i only keep cities that have wonders in them, unless that wonder is worthless at that stage in time, since foreign wonders that you capture NEVER produce culture...

MaSsConFUsi0n

	19-11-2001 15:45									#10
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I've never had an original city defect, either. But then again, I always build cultural stuff to keep 'em happy.

I have had captured cities defect. Sometimes the message hints that it had to do with culture, sometimes it's just a straight tossing out of the governor. Either way, there seems to be a positive correlation between the number of unhappy citizens of the prior owner and the probability of defection. The more unhappy citizens, the more likely the defection.

Also, Wonders aren't the answer. I've had cities with wonders in them defect several times. It seems the only things that work are reducing the population, building "happy face" generators, and increasing the luxury rate.

	19-11-2001 16:09									#11
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The AI places their cities badly anyway. To my great pleasure, in Civ3, I am now encouraged to raze them, whereas it was an under-the-table kind of thing in Civ2.

	19-11-2001 18:15									#12
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I've had an original city defect. It was the stupidest thing you can imagine, here's what happened:

i founded this city called Tarsus around 1500BC, the city defected to the Aztecs around 1900AD. At the time, the city was a size 25 city, producing a lotta culture each turn, it had all the improvements possible, plus a couple small wonders, it had above average culture. The closest Aztec city was about 35-40 tiles away! And at the time, the aztecs were getting conquered like mad by the americans and the english, they were down to like 5 cities. There is ABSOLUTELY no reason why my city should have defected, im pretty sure this is a bug in the game, there's no reason why that city would defect.

	19-11-2001 20:19									#13
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Cities you have captured have a greater chance of defecting if they are closer to their original capital. What I do to keep them from defecting is bombard the crap out of the city until it is down to at least population 3, preferably 1 or 2. Once you take it, garrison an equal number of troops per resistor (I usually don't do more just in case they revolt). Then rush build a temple or something if possible. The sooner you can get it connceted to your capital by roads or harbors the better because the people will be happier because they benefit from your luxuries then. Also, if you take a big population city and you are still attacking their original civ, they will be mad about this, don't be afraid to starve them if you have to by making them all entertainers. If you can bombard then enough to get their population down, you should be able to hold onto the city, I haven't had one revert yet since I started.

-quinalla

	19-11-2001 23:55									#14
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I have found that the proximity of your capitol (or Forbidden City) in relation to the proximity of the opposing capitol plays a huge part in determining if a city will defect. In fact if I am planning to expand in a particular direction I will start building the Forbidden City or palace in a city very near the border I am expanding into (ahead of time). This way I will have a much better chance of retaining cities once they are captured. Often the palace/forbidden city build is lagging behind my offensive actions (can anyone say "impatient") In these cases I do exactly what quinalla stated previously (Garrison Troops=Population, rush-build next culture building as soon as resistance as ended, and get a road in there fast for luxuries, and finally prevent the city from going in to civil disorder at all costs! starvation...who cares?!)

The approach mentioned above works well when you are planning the attack/offensive. Of course the AI will sometimes decide which way you will be expanding for you (when the attack you first). If you want to retain a city that you are taking in a counter attack, but have not even started the Palace/Forbidden City in a spot that will allow you to retain the city long term. You do have an option...Force the AI to move it's capitol to a better spot (for you). It seems that the when you destroy the AI's capitol it will move it to the city with the next highest population. With some careful planning this can allow you to "move" their capitol to a position much farther away from the city(s) you would like to retain (sometimes even off the continent!). This tactic can be time/turn consuming, (you may have to raze one or two cities first in order for the capitol to move to the location you want). But if executed properly you can safely gain 3-4 cities without having any defect back to the original owners.

If anyone has had luck with other strategies, please let me know!

	20-11-2001 00:18									#15
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I'm having a brain lockup right now. Please enlighten me on the meaning of WLTKD, I can't seem to think what it means. Thanks.
Osprey

	20-11-2001 00:19									#16
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Building Workers and/or Settlers in the captured city and then adding them back immediately will get rid of a few people of the AI nationality and replace them with your own. You don't necessarily need to do this with everybody in the city, but you can change the ratio of theirs to yours.

	20-11-2001 01:15									#17
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uH Clem, Excellent idea! I will start doing that with aquired cites if I suspect they are likely candidtes for defection.

Osprey, WLTKD is "We Love the King Day". This is supposed to provide the city with a production bonus, and a reduction in waste (not corruption). The manual states that WLTKD is triggered when:
Your city population is six or above and....
There are no unhappy citizens in the city and....
There must be at least as many happy citzens as content citizens
I hope this helps.

	20-11-2001 09:53									#18
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Got warriors still around somewhere? got a city that could revolt? You now have a use for all those outdated units. A spearman is just as good at whacking dissedents as a tank and you wont care much if you lose them to a revolt.

	20-11-2001 10:26									#19
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To keep your original cities from defecting, I believe your entire empire must produce enough culture to match the AI's. I had a size 16 original city with all cultural improvements defect before. Probably due to the fact that I have only 8 cities compared to the many cities the AI have.

	20-11-2001 18:21									#20
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Its really hard to hold these cities.

At this point I raze constantly, but I'm concerned about the diplomatic effects of burning cities. It doesn't say anything about it anywhere. But I really wouldn't be suprised.

I've actually seen the computer burn down cities, bring in workers and resettle. I can only imagine its to fix this exact problem.

If I intend to hold it. I use the following guidelines:

1 unit per foreign national. (yep, it hurts. But it'll give you some security.. it can even dip into a 1 turn riot when war warryness increments and it'll stay yours)

Hurry a temple for culture. Then a market. This should get you big smiles (if your going to war without a really good set of luxuries, you deserve to have your cities defect :P ). Lib -> cathedral, what ever.

Once your people start popping up, I feel it cancels the effect of a foreign national. I don't know the exact #'s but 1 for 1 seems to work well in my experiances. 5 french(them)/2 german (you) = only 3 units to garrison.

	20-11-2001 18:31									#21
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I had a city near my capital defect to the English when they had been reduced to a single population-5 city on a remote island. I think there may be a small chance of a random defection no matter what.

On the other hand, since my strategy involves selling small cities in desert or jungle inside my territory to the AI, I gain ten times more cities by defection than I lose. On occasion I have sold the same worthless desert city to the same AI civ three times.

	20-11-2001 20:09									#22
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I've tried to see what I could do to save a defecting city by reload a prior save. I didn't have much luck in changing the outcome. Finally, I gave up and decided to cut my losses by selling all the improvements in the city and moving all the military units out. Much to my surprise the city didn't defect. So far, I've done this 3 times and everytime I have kept the city from defecting. It doesn't make sense. My government was Monarchy at the time.

	20-11-2001 20:58									#23
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I have captured a Russian city that's closer to my territory than theirs, and only with a population of 3. I put two swordsmen in there.... 3 turns later, they defected. My culture is superior (they are impressed, my people are dismissive), and it's a city that's surrounded by mine (all original French cities, not captured). What's worst is that the message says they defected because of superior culture of the Russians, which is clearly not superior to mine...

I think Firaxis tellins us what's included in the factors will be very nice indeed.

	20-11-2001 21:40									#24
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quote: Originally posted by uh Clem Building Workers and/or Settlers in the captured city and then adding them back immediately will get rid of a few people of the AI nationality and replace them with your own. You don't necessarily need to do this with everybody in the city, but you can change the ratio of theirs to yours.

I don't think this works. If you build settlers/workers in a city that is another nationality, you get those units as their original nationality. When adding these units to a city, the still retain their nationality (as do captured units). I have swapped citizens from captured cities with citizens of mine in hopes of preventing defection. We'll see if that works.

	20-11-2001 22:34									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Romulus uH Clem, Excellent idea! I will start doing that with aquired cites if I suspect they are likely candidtes for defection. Osprey, WLTKD is "We Love the King Day". This is supposed to provide the city with a production bonus, and a reduction in waste (not corruption). The manual states that WLTKD is triggered when: Your city population is six or above and.... There are no unhappy citizens in the city and.... There must be at least as many happy citzens as content citizens I hope this helps.

Thanks Romulus, of course that's what it means! hehe....damn acronyms..

	20-11-2001 22:56									#26
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In a recent game, I as Egypt conquered all of the Aztecs cities, except one with a population of 1 on an island. I had taken over Tenochitlan, which had built Sun Tsu's from the Aztecs. Suddenly, Tenochitlan defects back to the Aztecs, despite being completely surrounded by other cities I had taken over/founded and several of my units fortified there.

It would be nice to at least know what factors are considered in deciding whethre or not a city defects.

	20-11-2001 23:39									#27
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Yeah, really. If you were the leader of a collection of city-states, wouldn’t you have some inkling that a cultural revolution is happening in one of your provinces? Or is the supposition in Civ III that the leadership is out of touch with the people it governs? Or is top management only aware when it’s too late and there’s blood in the streets?

At least in the Modern Age there would be television coverage of the event to give you some kind of warning. Even the Communists in East Germany must have realized that there was a rising tide under their noses before the wall came down.

Perhaps there should be some kind of opinion poll available in each city. A question might go something like “Do you consider yourself a German?” If the answer is “Yes,” then fine – the higher the percentage the better. If the answer is “No” or “Undecided,” then list the other nationality. Alternatively the question could go, “What nationality do you lean most closely to?”

Basically, it’s a cultural census. The worse it goes against your civilization, the greater the likelihood of a city defection. Obviously such a poll probably would not happen in an ancient Roman province. However, there should be some similar indication of a turn in cultural alignment before the fact.

Last edited by IronSpam on 20-11-2001 at 23:52

	21-11-2001 00:29									#28
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MaSs ConFusSioN:

quote: if you plan to take some enemy city, make a settler and some extra workers. as soon as you capture the city, raze it. then take your settler and build one of YOUR cities right on that spot and put those extra workers that you built in the city too, to increase the population quickly.

Remarkably, this was standard practice by many Sumerian age Kings!

	21-11-2001 00:57									#29
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In my most recent game which I finally finished, Monarch-Huge-Maximum number of civs, I had huge problems holding onto Russian cities.

Happiness may factor in somewhat but I lost 4 cities back to the Russians before I got too irritated with them and captured all of their cities.

The cities that deposed their governors were small (size 3) and large (size high teens). All the cities were done resisting and was all the population was happy due extremely high amounts . I had experienced a similiar problem with an earlier American city in the same vacinity, so I had thought to combat it with blowing my treasury on culture building improvements. My Forbidden Palace was only one to three cities away from any of the problem cities, but their palace was just as close.

The Russians were one of the top civs and one of the nearby cities had a wonder in it.

One of the cities around pop 10 had two armies, 6 to 8 tanks, 4 to 6 infantry. Just lost all the units when the city converted.

Here is what I think is the cause. Whenever you take over a city its culture gets reset to 0. Building scads of culture generating improvements helps but isn't enough to insure their staying in your society, especially if they are next to an enemy with high culture (especially one with a wonder nearby).

	21-11-2001 02:21									#30
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So all that we have figured out is that there seems to be no rhyme or reason to defection. I too had a couple of cities deep in the heart of my enemies defect, so I reloaded and moved ALL of my units out, and it did not defect, until about 20 turns later. Reading everyone elses experiences, I can't find a pattern, but I can find something to directly contradict what happened to me. What will be interesting is when the patch comes out (!) and they "tone corruption down a bit" and see what effect the added culture has on captured cities. As far as I have seen, NO ONE has had a city revert that what celebrating WLTKD.