19-11-2001 07:32									#1
	Mandatory Evacuation Prior to Right of Passage Backstab Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Would be a good idea, would it not? An automatic moving of your units out of their territory? I mean come on, a right of passage attack on the AI is pretty damned cheesy given their limitations.

	19-11-2001 13:58									#2
	i don't get it. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

um... if you're gonna backstab the civ while you have an agreement, why bother negating yourself of its advantages?


ER

	19-11-2001 22:22									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Be careful there....you attack the AI under a right of passage agreement, and you won't be able to sign another one for the rest of the game...

	19-11-2001 22:36									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by ixnay37 Be careful there....you attack the AI under a right of passage agreement, and you won't be able to sign another one for the rest of the game...

I wish the game was smart enough to recognize actual backstabs from diplomatic necessity. Here's my scenario:

I have a RoP with the Germans, even though all the AIs are at war with them. Even though I have RoP, I haven't used it in several dozen turns, and none of my units are within German borders, not even naval units. The Romans call up and ask for a Mutual Defense pact, being that I wanted to get into the German war before and get some of the spoils before the AI got everything I agree and accept the MutDef. The next diplomacy screen I see says that my MutDef pact forced me to declare war immediately, before I have a chance to talk to the Germans and demand so much that they declare war on me first. So now no one, not even my existing MutDef/RoP buddies will extend our existing RoP agreements, even though I never violated one. This sucks

	19-11-2001 22:49									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hey speaking of using Right of Passage agreements to your advantage, has anyone ever tried this?

I've often played the Good Samaritan and sent a worker to clean up pollution on someone else's territory while a Right of Passage agreement is in effect. It also occurs to me you could irrigate, road, mine, etc. So long as you don't destroy land improvements, there's no treaty violation. I'm playing the Americans and their workers get in and get the job done pretty fast.

I'm planning a blitz of the neighboring Greek nation with a lot of tanks and infantry awaiting in transports offshore. It seemed better than trying to go across the land border and inch my way across. I'm sending a worker or two to fortify landing positions right next to enemy cities while it's still peacetime. The only downside I can see is that Alexander might occupy those positions while my forces are still on their way. But if it works, when the initial wave lands, those first few will have a chance to survive for the fight.

I thought of trying this while driving to work and am waiting to get home and do it. It would be funny if the AI caught on to this trick -- "Uh oh, the Americans are building forts again on my land, get ready for D-Day."

	20-11-2001 02:04									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

IronSpam, that suggestion is underhanded, amoral , and completely repulsive......I can't wait to get home and try it.

On another note, I have a RoP with the Greeks (i am playing the Romans) while we were both attacking the Egyptians. The Egyptians are all but wiped out, and I am leaving the mopping up to the Greeks. So here I am with a whole bunch of Legions marching back through Greek territory, and it occurs to me that the RoP may only have a few turns left, and all those Greeks are off fighting the Egyptians....hmmm. Before stopping play late last night I moved my troops into good positions to attack the Greeks. If I let the agreement expire, I image that the next turn I will get the message, requesting that I move my troops and will have the ability to "declare war". Has anyone had any experience with this strategy? Will it work. I assume that my "reputation" will still be intact since *technically* I did not violate the RoP.

	20-11-2001 03:44									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Yes, I believe you can add fortifications. I (always playing the Americans) sent workers in to fortify Roman land on the threatening German border. We had a RoP. The only thing, is that the land was undeveloped except for roads, so I don't know if they'd freak out if you stuck a fort on their farmlands.

	20-11-2001 12:16									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I like it. Oh, I forgot, I never give Rop unless the game is nearly over. I never agree to Mutal Protection either, do not want them deciding when I go to war. In fact think I do not like those pacts at all. I had just agreed to peace with Germans after whacking them some and they Pacted with someone and were force to declare war on me the very day after we came to peace? Is that the best the AI could do? I mean the Germans were so happy to be out of the war as I had tanks and they had mostly bowman and a few calv/knights types. Why would you join some one that would force you back to war? I did not want the war anymore as I wanted the newly conquered germany cities to mellow out for a while.

	20-11-2001 22:25									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Just so everyone knows, you don't even need a ROP to create fortresses on foreign soil, even if it destroys improvements.

When my territory had NO water at all to irrigate with, I had to send workers to England to "steal" water from them by irrigating their mine squares. AI didn't bat an eye, just fixed it when I was done.

	20-11-2001 23:12									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

You mean even if you don’t have a Right of Passage agreement, the AI won’t be offended about a worker on their land? That’s actually funny.

Imagine screwing around with the AI’s economy with teams of Industrious workers that can build faster than they can. You could for instance wall someone in with forests that’ll take some time to knock back down. Or you could convert irrigated grasslands into mined grasslands, messing with a city’s food supply.

I suppose it’s all the same, you’re “improving” the land! Still, when it asks you whether you want to change the old improvement to the new one, aren’t you effectively destroying the improvement, potentially sparking an incident?

I’ll try it on someone and see whether there are any complaints.

	21-11-2001 12:39									#11
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by IronSpam You mean even if you don’t have a Right of Passage agreement, the AI won’t be offended about a worker on their land? That’s actually funny. Imagine screwing around with the AI’s economy with teams of Industrious workers that can build faster than they can. You could for instance wall someone in with forests that’ll take some time to knock back down. Or you could convert irrigated grasslands into mined grasslands, messing with a city’s food supply. I suppose it’s all the same, you’re “improving” the land! Still, when it asks you whether you want to change the old improvement to the new one, aren’t you effectively destroying the improvement, potentially sparking an incident? I’ll try it on someone and see whether there are any complaints.

It doesn't work. I wanted to trade with France, had all the road in place in my territory, but they were quite backwards and haven't build their part. So I thought I would finish the road for them, my worker started to build a road for them and after a couple of turns they threw him out. Silly people...

	21-11-2001 21:06									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Did you have a Right of Passage agreement?

	21-11-2001 23:12									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

In my current game, the Russians don't seem to care whether they have a ROP or not. No more than two turns after we negotiated her peace offering, with no ROP, her Knights and Pikemen are trampling across my territory. I'm allowing it for now, because they're no threat to my cities, and I'm in Democracy and need the period of peace. When this happened before, I was able to demand she leave, got the inevitable declaration of war, and defeated most of her offending troops. My guess is that will happen again.

	21-11-2001 23:16									#14
	Increase the size of your Attachments

My worker was able to build two irrigations without being ejected, one of which destroyed a mine. Vive le difference, it's probobly just a tolerance issue.

	13-12-2001 04:41									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

Be careful with RoP agreements and automated workers.

I once negotiated a RoP with the Egyptians so I could pass
through and defend them from the English (my real enemy),
and after a couple of turns I noticed all my workers were
*gone*. All of them. Then I noticed they were all in Egypt,
tidying up the place. Alot of the morons were even running
right up to English units.. I could almost hear them yelling
"Here I am, take me!".

	13-12-2001 09:21									#16
	Got spare money?

quote: In my current game, the Russians don't seem to care whether they have a ROP or not

I suspect this has to do with their power ranking or military size compared to yours. I had a game where I tried starting small, with just a few cities, and expanding with my military from there once I had some decent units. Of course the AI was far more powerful than I was and *nobody* honored my borders. They were all Polite to me and never declared war probably because I had done a lot of trading with them, but it really got on my nerves. The French would move 40+ troops through my city each turn when they were at war with a Civ on the other side. At first I started paying for RoP so I wasn't threatened, but after awhile I just ignored it.

In every game where I've been at or near the top of the power meter, all Civs have respected my borders.

	13-12-2001 15:08									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

As I said in another thread, you don't NEED to worry about not being able to sign another ROP agreement... if there's no one left to sign with. Just get ROP with everyone and attttaaaaaaack! Think of it as the slasher-movie of political backstabs.

	13-12-2001 17:18									#18
	Got spare money?

I backstabbed the Russians but was able to sign a RoP with the Germans only 2 turns after that 'event'. So I assume it only goes for 1 civ at a time.

	13-12-2001 19:22									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It has to do with your power rating. Ive found the stronger you are, the bigger bully you can be and the more you can walk all over the AI. Look around in this forum for strategies on turning weaker AI nations into vassals for more information.

	13-12-2001 19:25									#20
	Suffering from ads?

It is true that you can place workers on enemy lands without a RoPP. In fact, I had a warrior go through German territory and he never complained. However, I notice that when the AI gets Nationalism, they tend to get tickt at me having workers going through even with a RoPP.

I have also seen enemy workers going through my land, but for some reason even if I ask them to get out, they don't. In fact, one time I asked for them to get out, Miss Cleo "bribed" me with a 100 gold as a gift. Pretty cool I say.