19-11-2001 11:00									#1
	I always thought that the resources were ok Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I always thought that the people who have been complaining about the way the game deals out resources were off-base. Now I am not sure.

I am playing on warlord diff, large map as the French. I started on what turned out to be the largest continent, I expanded very fast and have the largest area.

I have two furs in my territory. No other luxuries. No horses,no big deal, no Iron...Ok rush to musketeers... No coal.... Now No rubber.

I share the largest continent with the Germans that I have cornered into a relatively small area, they also do not have any other strategic resources in their territory that I don't already have ( salt peter).

I had my best civ yet going with my total culture over 49000 by year 1750 and my capitol at almost 9000 culture.

There is no point continuing this game as with no resources I have no hope of expanding further and acquiring what I need with nothing to trade and weak units....

After spending quite a few hours on this game to have no decent resources or luxuries on the largest continent at all is not balanced game play at all....

	19-11-2001 11:06									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

Crap, thats alot of culture! Can you tell me your F11 demographics numbers? Just to compare, I am almost to your date in the game...

I had alot of resources on my land, but I lack oil despite owning one of the three continents...oil should be on EVERY continent, like the real planet we live on...

Venger

	19-11-2001 11:19									#3
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what stats in particular?
Iwas off by a few years it's actually 1792 and I am starting to fall behind now....

	19-11-2001 11:36									#4
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quote: Originally posted by miloII what stats in particular? Iwas off by a few years it's actually 1792 and I am starting to fall behind now....

Gimme em all!!

Venger

	19-11-2001 11:44									#5
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It's dissapointing to see how you stopped playing a game cause of that. It adds depth in the game, and there's so many ways around it.

	19-11-2001 13:46									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

well, to be fair, no coal, iron, OR oil would kinda suck.

a lot.

I mean, you could probably trade for it, but it's still ugly.

ER

	19-11-2001 13:56									#7
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makes every game different. i had nothing but iron so far in my game...and i cannot make my cossacks. it will be interesting

	19-11-2001 14:32									#8
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trade for it, build up a military, then take over the source. that adds so much depth to the game.

	19-11-2001 14:37									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

the resource system doesn't suck because you're playing a game right now in which you have hardly any resources.
Those things happen once in a while, deal with it. Become a trade-based civilization.

	19-11-2001 14:39									#10
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Wheel, deal, and steal Milo

	19-11-2001 15:34									#11
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Problem is when your more advanced than others you cant trade coz they cant get it so your stuck waiting for everyone to catch up.

Seems like they are punishing a player for being to good and getting more advanced than the other civs.

	19-11-2001 16:06									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

as long as they don't know about rubber,
you can colonize the rubber all over the planet !

Use your knowledge to dominate the resources !

	19-11-2001 16:35									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

Hmm, that's an interesting concept. I wonder if the AI is blind to strategic resources until it has the requisite technology (I'm sure that MPs would be). That would work to an advanced Civ's benefit, obviously. If you can see the oil and the AI can't, you might be able to wage a quick war and annex the territory from it rather cheaply. The AI would be scratching its virtual head wondering why you'd be interested in a small patch of desert, right up until it discovered refining. D'oh!

	19-11-2001 16:40									#14
	I am starting to dislike it as well Suffering from ads?

I started out loving the resources, and early in the game it works well. But, in the same game, here's what happened:

I have North America (using the medium earth map) and soon after discovering gunpowder I run out of the single salt peter resource. First I rushed workers to my allies in South America, building roads for them on their salt peter so I can trade it. I build the roads on 3 resources, and there's no option to trade it. I end up colonizing Hawaii to get saltpeter, no big deal.

Later, I have coal. Luckily I've already built a lot of railroad before that single source runs out. Now there's 3 other civilizations who have this resource and have it as an option to trade. I try ALL 3 of them and NOBODY will trade the resource with me. Now these are civilizations that I've been at peace at for millenia. There's never been bad blood, and I even try offering all the technologies I have, plus 50 gold per turn, and they still are insulted by the idea of trading coal! I don't even need coal for military units at this point, just railroads.

Soon after this annoyance I discover uranium. There are two deposits next to one of my biggest cities. After about 5 turns (give or take a turn, really) BOTH uranium resources run out in the same turn.

I can understand simulating overmining, sure. I can see how it forces you to colonize. No problem. Trade negotiations would be great. However, I'm playing on Cheiftain, and none of my allies will even consider trading any strategic resources that I somehow deplete in five years. I'm not even warned that I'm over mining, at least then I could try to preserve my resources.

Bleh.

	19-11-2001 16:50									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Wrong_shui Problem is when your more advanced than others you cant trade coz they cant get it so your stuck waiting for everyone to catch up. Seems like they are punishing a player for being to good and getting more advanced than the other civs.

Well, no, see ... you have a commodity (tech) that you can now trade. Why wait for them to get there? Call 'em up, show 'em the tech, ask what they'll give you for it. Take the money, call next civ, etc. This has been very effective for me in the middle game, giving me tons and tons of money, which I naturally plow right back into science.

Just because a civ has a resource you don't doesn't mean they hold all the cards. Well, not always, at least.

	19-11-2001 16:53									#16
	Re: I am starting to dislike it as well Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by BlightCrawler However, I'm playing on Cheiftain, and none of my allies will even consider trading any strategic resources that I somehow deplete in five years.

The AI should be nicer to Chieftain players. For Regent & up everything is fine.

	19-11-2001 16:59									#17
	Re: I am starting to dislike it as well Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by BlightCrawler Soon after this annoyance I discover uranium. There are two deposits next to one of my biggest cities. After about 5 turns (give or take a turn, really) BOTH uranium resources run out in the same turn.

Yeah, I've found the depletion to be annoying and strangely coincidental to other events in the game. Two pieces of anecdotal evidence:

1) Regent, have deal to export saltpeter to Russians. During the 20-turn length of the contract, my other source dries up, leaving me with none (the other goes to the Russkies). Later on, I don't really need saltpeter, so I let the contract sit. And sit. Finally, I end the deal AND THE VERY NEXT TURN that source depletes. Uh huh.

2) Regent again. I make it to Refining and discover that I have no oil. Not wanting to let the others catch up, I hunt down a source near a vulnerable city. Turns out to be Chinese, quite a ways away. I gather up some troops and make the trek out there. I take the city (well, I asked for it, but the Chinese weren't feeling generous) and fight a pitched battle to hold it. I finally am able to secure a peace deal and get a worker out to re-establish the road to the oil. Less than five turns later, that source peters out ... and a new one pops up right in the middle of my home territory. Hmmph!

I'll just add these to my list of wonders I've missed out on by one turn.

	19-11-2001 18:31									#18
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quote: It's dissapointing to see how you stopped playing a game cause of that. It adds depth in the game, and there's so many ways around it.

I agree. I played a game where I was the only one on a small continent (tundra occupying almost half of it!) with nothing but lots of silk. I discovered a nearby island (w/ room for 1 town) that had iron but also riddled w/ mountains and hills. I decided to build a town anyway to get at the iron. You guessed it! Before I was able to build the harbor, the iron ran out!

Thousands of years later, I finally had contact w/ the other tribes. Though I was technologically (sp?) backward, I was able to use my silk to trade for techs, bringing me back on par w/ the rest of them. Mind you, these were not simple exchanges . . . the AI always got the better deal but I was in no position to argue.

Eventually, the inevitable happened. The Aztecs declared war on me and things appeared frightening indeed. Then, lo and behold, my little, one town island not only discovered iron, but saltpeter as well! This new buildup of my military, combined w/ some diplomacy alliances against the Aztecs, allowed me to capture a nearby, two-city Aztec island! VICTORY!

Rubber was another problem. I would trade w/ the Zulus to obtain it, build up my tanks, and then attack the Zulus in the hopes of accomplishing a beach head before running out of tanks.

In the last quarter of the game, a resevoir of oil was discovered on my main continent (all that tundra finally paid off). Then another . . . and then another . . . I ended up with 4 oil reserves!

Bottom line: hang in there, look at all your options, and create new options. The bleakest looking games sometimes end up being best.

quote: Why wait for them to get there? Call 'em up, show 'em the tech, ask what they'll give you for it. Take the money, call next civ, etc. This has been very effective for me in the middle game, giving me tons and tons of money, which I naturally plow right back into science.

This is similar to the relationship between the Western countries and the oil producing, middle east countries.

quote: makes every game different. i had nothing but iron so far in my game...and i cannot make my cossacks. it will be interesting

quote: trade for it, build up a military, then take over the source. that adds so much depth to the game.

quote: the resource system doesn't suck because you're playing a game right now in which you have hardly any resources. Those things happen once in a while, deal with it. Become a trade-based civilization.

IMOHO, resources (as handled in Civ 3) are one of the best things to come to the Civ series.

	19-11-2001 19:07									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Barchan Hmm, that's an interesting concept. I wonder if the AI is blind to strategic resources until it has the requisite technology (I'm sure that MPs would be). That would work to an advanced Civ's benefit, obviously. If you can see the oil and the AI can't, you might be able to wage a quick war and annex the territory from it rather cheaply.

I did exactly that in my current game. The Zulus demanded Replaceable Parts, I said "No freakin' way", they declared war. I then gave every other civ in the game whatever it took to declare war on the Zulus. After a few years fighting and heavy unit losses for the Zulus (although NO territory was won or lost by anyone) they were willing to trade three small cities next to their only source of oil for Peace and a handful of gold. Funny thing is, I had been gearing up for war with the Babylonians at the time becuase I needed oil! In the end, I left the Babylonians in peace and the Zulus oil-less (though they won't know it until the get refining.....).