20-11-2001 00:03									#1
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How much do you play? How good? Hard to find partners?

I would like to get better and would like to play contract, not duplicate. I prefer to learn the Goren Bridge Complete methods

	20-11-2001 15:08									#2
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You mean the American Standard System of bidding, yes?

I used to be a member of ACBL (American Contract Bridge League) and competed on a number of levels.

Bridge is a game where you can get decent quickly, then you need to hit the books, I particualarly loath studying all the silly cases for various rare uses of squeezes.

Contract is fun but you can only horn your skills at duplicate or swiss team.

	20-11-2001 21:48									#3
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Bridge is my favorite game, but I haven't had a regular partner in over 20 years. I used to play duplicate a lot, and won a little over 50 Master Points (to put that in perspective, a real bridge pro will typically have over a thousand).

Ever since I got the Internet at home, my favorite activity has been playing bridge on Pogo. The only drawbacks are that you can only play rubber bridge, not duplicate; you always get different partners (although I suppose you could arrange to play with someone you know); and you usually don't get much chance to discuss conventions before play.

Internet bridge is also available on Yahoo, and probably other places as well. (Anyone else have recommendations?)

	21-11-2001 04:43									#4
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Pogo is OK. Let's go play there, Rex. You'll have to put up with my skill level and my wanting to play by Charles Goren methods. (about 95% agreement with Standard American). My 2's are strong. I will bid a 4 card major if I have 4 high card points in the suit and it's the right opening bid...

Plus, that's how my old man played...and I've got this book.

	21-11-2001 14:03									#5
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There are bridge lounges at Yahoo too.


GP,

Forget about 4-card majors length is definitely more important. That's why most bidding systems have some kind of "escape hatch" that you can use just in case you have some high card points but the wrong shape.

Also modern bidding is a little "lighter" than SA. Most people do open on 12, and so on.

	21-11-2001 20:52									#6
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I'd rather learn everything the old school Catholic way,
pre-Vatican 2.

If I can play as well as Charles Goren, I'll be fine. And then I'll also have the perspective to know if I want to play with these little changes (because they are little...modern bidding is so so much closer to Goren than he was to his predecessors).

Last edited by TCO on 21-11-2001 at 21:34

	21-11-2001 20:57									#7
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Ever tried the Precision bidding system? It's very good.

Sure, you need a partner who understands your bids

	21-11-2001 21:34									#8
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You play Precision, UR? Awesome! That's what I used when I played Duplicate regularly. I haven't found a partner for it on Pogo; if we can get together there we should be able to confuse the hell out of the opposition, as hardly anyone is familiar with it.

GP, I can play Goren too. When I first learned bridge, nearly 40 years ago, I went to the library, took out Goren's New Contract Bridge Complete, and read it cover to cover five times before sitting down to play. (Not that I was a fanatic about preparation; it just took that long to find three other people to play with.) Other than Precision, standard Goren is the system I'm most comfortable with.

If either of you gets over to Pogo, look for me under the name InyoF. (I wanted InyoFace, but it was unavailable and I took the first alternate suggestion the computer gave me.)

	21-11-2001 21:42									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Ever tried the Precision bidding system? It's very good. Sure, you need a partner who understands your bids

I just want to try one thing at a time. Goren is fine.

	21-11-2001 21:45									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Rex Little You play Precision, UR? Awesome! That's what I used when I played Duplicate regularly. I haven't found a partner for it on Pogo; if we can get together there we should be able to confuse the hell out of the opposition, as hardly anyone is familiar with it. GP, I can play Goren too. When I first learned bridge, nearly 40 years ago, I went to the library, took out Goren's New Contract Bridge Complete, and read it cover to cover five times before sitting down to play. (Not that I was a fanatic about preparation; it just took that long to find three other people to play with.) Other than Precision, standard Goren is the system I'm most comfortable with. If either of you gets over to Pogo, look for me under the name InyoF. (I wanted InyoFace, but it was unavailable and I took the first alternate suggestion the computer gave me.)

Let's coordinate a meeting. I'm on the (proverbial) beach so I'm free whenever. I'd also like to chat before...just so that we make sure it's fun.

	22-11-2001 10:35									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Rex Little You play Precision, UR? Awesome! That's what I used when I played Duplicate regularly. I haven't found a partner for it on Pogo; if we can get together there we should be able to confuse the hell out of the opposition, as hardly anyone is familiar with it.

That meaans I need to dig out my Precision bidding books and have a go at them, since I haven't used it since I left university - thus my regular partners.

The hard part is the 1 club forcing plus all the responses, none of which is natural. Otherwise Precision is mostly natural.

	22-11-2001 10:37									#12
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I am not sure how Goren differs from SA. Can anybody explain?

	22-11-2001 20:37									#13
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It's basically the same. I only know Goren, so I can't describe the exact differences.

	23-11-2001 23:29									#14
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Some unrelated remarks about that wonderful game.

I started playing bridge in 1992 and have been addicted to it ever since. I usually play twice a week, always some form of duplicate (pairs, IMPs, butler), 24 or 28 boards a night.

Bridge is very popular in the Netherlands, the NBB is the second largest national bridge association in the world, with over 100,000 members. Besides there are about half a million people who play bridge "unofficially".

Not many people play rubber bridge over here, and consequently not many people play for money. Dutch bridge clubs, of which there are many, are not profit-based. You can become a member for as little as $ 80 a year or so, non-members can join for 2 or 3 dollars a night if there's a table left.

Although SA (Standard American) has some influence, most people here play a Dutch variety of the Acol system, surprisingly called Dutch Acol or Niemeijer.

Don't read books about all kinds of squeezes, unless you're a top player. If you want to improve your game, read Kantar on defence and Mike Lawrence on everything else.

It's hard to make a good bridge computer program. Most programs are absolute crap. The best program there is (and it's improving all the time) is Matt Ginsberg's GIB. Very often, GIB's bidding is still a problem, but its play, both declarer play and defence, is quite good. Playing GIB is an excellent way to improve your skills (no, they don't pay me for saying that ), because in bridge, practice is almost as important as a good theoretical basis.

	24-11-2001 15:17									#15
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24 or 28 boards? Wow, that's a lot. If you spend 30 minutes playing each one that's 12 hours

That doesn't seem right.

Anyway, defence is a lot harder to play than offense. If you can play a solid defence you'd do well in duplicate.

	25-11-2001 05:39									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger 24 or 28 boards? Wow, that's a lot. If you spend 30 minutes playing each one that's 12 hours That doesn't seem right.

From The Official Encyclopedia of Bridge (5th edition):

BOARD. (1) A duplicate board. (2) The table on which the cards are played. (3) The dummy's hand (etc.)

BOARD, DUPLICATE. An oblong or square board used in various forms of duplicate bridge, slotted with four sections, each deep enough to hold one quarter of a standard deck of playing cards. (etc. etc.)

I am pretty sure that definition (1) is generally used by duplicate bridge players, native and non-native speakers of English alike. So board = hand = deal. Four boards are played in 30 minutes, so that's 3 hours for 24 boards, and 3 h 30 m for 28 boards. Changing tables every four deals.
You probably thought of definition (2)?

	25-11-2001 07:50									#17
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Hm.

I was using definition (1) too. The boards rotate in one direction and the E-W pairs rotate in the other direction. When I was playing duplicate in the US we used to refer to number of tables we had. Though number of tables = number of boards.

Number of hands are four times number of boards.

Do you have a handicap system in the Netherlands? Have you used those bidding cards?

	25-11-2001 22:55									#18
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Well, Rex and I had a good time playing on Pogo. He is an expert player and a gentleman. We won one rubber and lost one. But points-wise we came out way ahead for the engagement as we punished the other pair with mercilless defense several times in the first rubber.

I underbid a little or we would have come off better. Go to use the Stayman convention for the first time. Kind of neat since we had discussed it! (I had the book right next to me!) And Rex, we'll play it with the show-hearts-first method, next time.

	26-11-2001 01:22									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Do you have a handicap system in the Netherlands? Have you used those bidding cards?

Handicapping is not very common here. We have an inter-club competition (league) system (mainly teams (IMPs), but also pairs) where everyone can play at their own level, with promotion and relegation.

Bidding boxes are omnipresent. You won't find a club, however modest, where they aren't used. Many people have a set at home. It even feels a bit strange to have to announce my bids out loud, which of course happens once in a while. The pros of bidding boxes are obvious, and I don't know of any cons.

	26-11-2001 05:23									#20
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As GP says, we had fun. He may be still learning to bid, but his card-play is way above beginner level.

There was one very amusing hand from the rubber we won. When a player drops out in Pogo, he may (at the option of the player hosting the table) be replaced by a computer player. One huge flaw in the computer's game: it always passes, no matter what cards it holds. One of our opponents dropped out (in the middle of playing a hand, no less!) and his partner agreed to use the computer rather than wait for someone to come along as a replacement.

The next hand, we were bidding hearts and our one live opponent was bidding diamonds, all the way up to the 5 level. When the computer player's dummy hand went down, it contained EIGHT spades, to the A-Q-J-10. To add insult, the declarer turned out to have K-x-x of spades. We set 5D, but with a human to my left they would have had little trouble reaching and making a spade slam.

	26-11-2001 07:46									#21
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Thanks, Rex. I was playing a little bit above myself...but that's a lot more fun than staring at all those Goren exercises...

	26-11-2001 10:19									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Oldenbarnevelt Handicapping is not very common here. We have an inter-club competition (league) system (mainly teams (IMPs), but also pairs) where everyone can play at their own level, with promotion and relegation.

I see. In the US the clubs generally use a handicap system. The teams in duplicate matches get more MPs (match points) if they face a superior team in terms of MP/IMP/whatever.

quote: Originally posted by Oldenbarnevelt Bidding boxes are omnipresent. You won't find a club, however modest, where they aren't used. Many people have a set at home. It even feels a bit strange to have to announce my bids out loud, which of course happens once in a while. The pros of bidding boxes are obvious, and I don't know of any cons.

Cons? I suppose players need time to get used to use a box if they are accustomed to bidding orally. That means old farts like me

	26-11-2001 10:25									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Rex Little One huge flaw in the computer's game: it always passes, no matter what cards it holds.

That bites

As Oldenbarnevelt said even the best bridge program sucks at bidding.

Speaking of the hand, I'd gone preempt at 4S (at least 3) unless I also have opening points.

	26-11-2001 14:34									#24
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May I asssume my aside in the Chess thread had spawned GP's two threads?

Used to play duplicate at club level many years ago partnering my then spouse (which BTW is not recommended - endless post-mortems at home leading to cold war detente). I still think it is a great strategy game with elements of intuition which is why both sexes are well represented in the expert circles.

Contract is fun but luck play a bigger part.

I started with Goren but was much influenced later by the books of Terence Reece.

	26-11-2001 22:33									#25
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Yes...your comment spurred me.

You should read The Mad World of Bridge. It has some funny parts about bridge divorces and murders...

I agree that luck is more a part at contract....but I like that...and I like the way that the scoresheet plays more of a role in your actions.

	27-11-2001 01:43									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Rex Little The next hand, we were bidding hearts and our one live opponent was bidding diamonds, all the way up to the 5 level. When the computer player's dummy hand went down, it contained EIGHT spades, to the A-Q-J-10. To add insult, the declarer turned out to have K-x-x of spades. We set 5D, but with a human to my left they would have had little trouble reaching and making a spade slam.

LOL.
Computer bots at websites are awful, not worth a try.
BTW, if you want to play duplicate (IMPs or matchpoints) for a change, check out the Gaming Zone (www.zone.com / zone.msn.com). You can play either MPs or IMPs at 3 levels (4 if you include the "Social Rooms"). A nice thing is that your score is adjusted all the time, as more people play the same hands. For every hand you have played you can get an overview of the scores, so you can compare your contracts and results to those of other players.

	27-11-2001 08:39									#27
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tonic,

Yeah, Reece is a good bridge writer.


Oldenbarnevelt,

Thanks for the heads-up.