20-11-2001 00:09									#1
	Map of France Remove this text

Hi,

as a French and real-map player, I wanted to add some fun with this map of France and close areas (Southern England, Northern Spain, Switzerland or Belgium).

This is a playable map, though might be difficult and requires quick trading. The main issue is it is not a flat world (Germans landing into Britanny sounds "funny" to me).
But it is aimed at becoming a scenario for the 100 years war and if you like it or the idea of what it could become I will create 4 maps / modpacks for different historical periods.

Critics and comments appreciated.

Enjoy,


Ludovic Dias

Attachment: ld_france_v1.0.zip
This has been downloaded 758 time(s).

	27-11-2001 11:30									#2
	Re: Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Hi,

nice to see some of you downloaded it but I just hope it is not so bad that nobody wants to bring his/her two cents of comments.

BTW, the Luxuries in Holland, Genova and Eastern Spain are to show the trade harbours (for most luxuries would not be found in Europe of course).

Feedabck welcomed ... and awaited !

Regards,

Ludovic

	27-11-2001 23:44									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Lou.

I am trying to create a mod that is from Dark Age Europe from 500 AD. The problem that I am having is that the Europe map is too small to give Romans, Brittons, Celts, and Scots a remote chance of growing into seperate Civs.

I really like your France map, and unfortunately, I am not that great at map making. Would it be possible to create a giga map (256x256) of Europe from The North African coast, to the northern tip of Norway, and from Iceland to the Eastern portion of Turkey. The 100x100 version that Ranger supplies here is far too small for this large of a project. If you have the time, could you produce the map.

The following new Civs are completed already in my Dark Ages senario, I just need a map to place them on:

Visigoths – Spain
Danes – Denmark
Norsemen – Norway
Anglo-Saxons – Netherlands & Belgium
Britons – England
Romans – Italy
Franks –France
Celts – Wales & Ireland
Scots – Scotland & Orkneys
Egyptians – Greater Egypt
Bohemians – Eastern Europe Area
Bulgarians – North of Greece
Bavarians – Austria & Germany Area
Byzantines – Turkey & Greece
Vandals – Deep Russia
Berbers – North Africa

This is the senario header...

"The Huns, just having decimated the Roman Empire loose their King Attila to treachery. The Roman Empire to the east splits from the west and becomes Byzantium. This opens up the rest of the Roman Empire to various Germanic and Slavic tribes, vying to cut their own Kingdoms out of the decaying Roman Empire. Meanwhile, the Arabic tribes in North Africa are becoming increasingly stronger, which in later years will develop into the Muslim hordes that will spark the numerous crusades in later years."

I've also created a new government type that is one up from Depotism called Clans. It facilitates the government ruling inbetween Depotism and Monarchy.

Hope you can help out,

Eric "Scorch" Boerner

	28-11-2001 21:06									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Could also be interesting as a sim of a WWII scenario from D-Day possibly to the Battle of the Bulge. Though I doubt you could get Germany to invade.. but still.. it could be interesting.

	29-11-2001 00:04									#5
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Basically, u mean the map inlcuded in Civ II for the Roman Empire, or a bit less eastwards....

Well, that is a lot of work and i wait to see if we will be able to translate Civ II bmp files first.

If u want something real for the end of the Roman Empire, just know most of Europe will be covered by forests...

Regards,

	29-11-2001 00:11									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I have another problem with ur tribes.

I agree with the Clan idea but your tribes are not all at their correct positions at the same time.

Ex : Vandals ended up in North Africa
Ex : Islam had not appeard yet...
Ex : Bohemians ???

Best but complicated and maybe frustrating would be to create new invasions of opponents (not barbarians) or even urs (do not start automatically at the beginning) in an event file.
Could be fun : u start 20 turns after the beginning with only units and u have got to take cities quickly before the next wave in order to create ur kingdom...

Regards,

	30-11-2001 03:07									#7
	Thanks for the reply Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I agree that not all the tribes were located at those areas historically at the same time, but I choose the tribes which had a lasting impact on the developement of Dark Age Europe.

The Vandals came from Slavic Russia and raided their way through Europe and into Spain, where they set up a small nation. The Visigoths uprooted them a century later and established their own kingdom. The Vandals then pressed on to North Africa, and into Byzantine, where their king was killed, which faded the Vandals out of history. I decided to start them in their traditional starting area of Slavic Russia for gameplay.

True Islam hadn't started in 500 AD, but it does in 700 AD, 200 years later. The actions of the Berber tribes are the catalist towards Spain coming under muselim rule. The Berbers were choosen to grow in the North Africa area as a civ because they have a significant impact later on.

Around the 4th century B.C. the present-day Czech Republic was populated by Celts. They were the first ethnic group to arrive in the area, according to historical evidence. The Celtic Boii tribe gave the country its Latin name - Boiohaemum (Bohemia). Bohemia remains as a civilization all the way up till 1848, when it became the modern day Czech Republic. They were choosen because they are a lasting Civ in the Slavic region.

If I remeber right there is a utility that someone has come up with here that allows a Mod creator to place specific tribes in player start areas. I'll need to check on it though.

At the moment the Mod uses a randomly created Continent. Thats why I desperately want a Giga Europe map.

	30-11-2001 08:17									#8
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: The following new Civs are completed already in my Dark Ages scenario, I just need a map to place them on: Visigoths – Spain Danes – Denmark Norsemen – Norway Anglo-Saxons – Netherlands & Belgium Britons – England Romans – Italy Franks –France Celts – Wales & Ireland Scots – Scotland & Orkneys Egyptians – Greater Egypt Bohemians – Eastern Europe Area Bulgarians – North of Greece Bavarians – Austria & Germany Area Byzantines – Turkey & Greece Vandals – Deep Russia Berbers – North Africa

Scorch: There's a big mistake here in identifying the "Celts" as Wales/Ireland and the "Britons" as England. England did not exist until the Saxons, Danes and Normans invaded the British Isles. Until then England, Wales and southern-Scotland was occupied by the "Britons", which is another name for the British Celts, in various different tribal forms, supplanted by the Romans during their occupation. They were quite separate from the Celtic tribes that held Ireland. Later on the Irish Celts invaded northern Scotland, giving rise to the Scots. The original "British" Celts survive today as the Welsh, Cornish and Bretons.

A better grouping, therefore, depending on the precise era you're aiming at, would be Ireland+Scottish Highlands, as perhaps the "Irish" and Wales+Any bits of England/Southern Scotland not invaded by post-Roman incoming European tribes at the time you're thinking of as the "Britons", and then whichever of the dominant post-Roman invaders of England (e.g. the "Saxons") that apply to your particular timescale.

I think a MOD of anything around this era would be very interesting indeed. There was an awful lot going on in the vacuum left by the Romans for centuries after. But you need to get your history sorted out better.

If you can get it right, I'll certainly look forward to playing it.

	01-12-2001 04:05									#9
	Thanks again for the reply. Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Again, for gameplay, I divided the celts as a seperate race from the Britons because of the distinct diffences they have in that time period.

Historically, mainland Celtic Britons came from Brittany after the Romans drove them from their homelands. They encountered Celts that had been living on the British Isles in Cornwall, Eire, and Wales. Scotland was NOT a Celtic tribe, they were Picts. The Picts were eliminated by Celts and Norsemen however, and todays Scots are a mix of both of those races. A few decades later, the Britons found themselves under the rule of the Romans anyway, and resigned to the fact that they couldn't avoid them. For a few centuries they lived in relative harmony with the Romans, learning a lot from them. Yet, the Celts in Eire, Wales and Cornwall remained as tribes and refused to be subjicated.

When the Romans left, the Britons found themselves needing to control their homelands themselves. Persisting pressure from the Welsh and Scots brought "Briton" into some major wars. The Brits continued wearing the crown however and many ledgendary Kings ruled them, including the fabled Uther and Aurthur. The list is pretty long.

This is from the time that the Romans left the British Isles.

Constantine II ...................c. 18yrs ..c. 402 - 420AD
Constans ...........................c. 17yrs ..c. 420 - 437AD
Vortigern ...........................c. 18yrs ..c. 437 - 455AD (deposed)
(Guorthemer) Vortimer ......c. 5yrs ..c. 455 - 460AD
Vortigern ...........................c. 20yrs ..c. 460 - 480AD (restored)
Aurellus Ambrosius ............c. 21yrs ..c. 480 - 501AD
Uther Pendragon ...............c. 20yrs ..c. 501 - 521AD
Arthur ................................c. 21yrs ..c. 521 - 542AD
Constantine III ..................c. 4yrs ..c. 542 - 546AD
Aurellius Conanus ..............c. 3yrs ..c. 546 - 549AD
Vortiporius .........................c. 1yr ..c. 549 - 550AD
(Maelgwn) Malgo ...............c. 5yrs ..c. 550 - 555AD
Keredic ..............................c. 8yrs ..c. 555 - 563AD
3 unnamed kings ...............c. 53yrs ..c. 563 - 616AD
Cadvan ..............................c. 9yrs .... 616 - 625AD
Cadwallo ...........................c. 8yrs .... 625 - 633AD
Cadwallader ......................c. 10yrs .... 633 - 643AD
Court fled to Brittany .........c. 11yrs .... 643 - 654AD
Cadwallader ......................c. 10yrs .... 654 - 664AD
Yvor .................................. c. 39yrs .... 664 - 703AD
Yni .................................... c. 40yrs .... 604 - 704AD

The British Celts continued to fight with the Britons, despite the fact they were both of Celtic origin (Although, by this time, most Britons had a large mix of Roman in their blood).

When the Anglo-Saxons came in the late 600's, the Britons once again fled their lands and returned to Brittany where they were able to stay seperate from France until the late 1500's.

The Anglo-Saxons ruled England with the Jutes up until the 1100's, when the Normans invaded and kicked them out. The Norman nobility have ruled England since then.

The British history is probibly one of the best on the planet. Full of hostile take overs. If you tell a Brit today that they probibly came from Germanic ancestry, they would laugh in your face, but its the truth. Brits are more of a Hienz 57 then Americans are.

Last edited by Scorch on 01-12-2001 at 04:11

	05-12-2001 14:04									#10
	Re: Thanks for the reply Support Apolyton

The Vandals came from Slavic Russia and raided their way through Europe and into Spain, where they set up a small nation. The Visigoths uprooted them a century later and established their own kingdom. The Vandals then pressed on to North Africa, and into Byzantine, where their king was killed, which faded the Vandals out of history. I decided to start them in their traditional starting area of Slavic Russia for gameplay.

OK. You just wrote it is not historically accurate. Wisigoths in Spain = Vandals in North Africa.

True Islam hadn't started in 500 AD, but it does in 700 AD, 200 years later. The actions of the Berber tribes are the catalist towards Spain coming under muselim rule. The Berbers were choosen to grow in the North Africa area as a civ because they have a significant impact later on.

Sure, I meant it had not yet appeared for you mentionned the Berbers and I thought you meant Muslim ones such as the later Almohads / Almohavids. I did not mean there was Islam. I was a University History teacher for a while so that's not the kind of mistake I could leave with. Berbers are pretty meaningless in that period.

Around the 4th century B.C. the present-day Czech Republic was populated by Celts.
Yep, La Tene
They were the first ethnic group to arrive in the area, according to historical evidence. The Celtic Boii tribe gave the country its Latin name - Boiohaemum (Bohemia). Bohemia remains as a civilization all the way up till 1848, when it became the modern day Czech Republic. They were choosen because they are a lasting Civ in the Slavic region.
The Slavs arrived later and the noun Bohemian does not refer as much to the Bohemia inhabitants as to the Gipsies nowadays. Including a Slavic Czech kingdom at that time would be historically innacurate.

If I remeber right there is a utility that someone has come up with here that allows a Mod creator to place specific tribes in player start areas. I'll need to check on it though.

Yep, CivBreed

At the moment the Mod uses a randomly created Continent. Thats why I desperately want a Giga Europe map. [/QUOTE]

Thnaks for your proposition but I am gonna wait and see first if
- a good maputility emerges. To draw a huge map takes a looong time.
- the patch enables the mapeditor to create flat world maps.
- I will finish the map / mods about France first

I do like your idea, it is a standard for a scenario but it sounds like you have favor balance and some countries/tribes and forget about historiczal accuracy. That is a choice you are free to make.

Regards,

	06-12-2001 05:16									#11
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I *love* the France map, thank you.

BTW, I am not an experienced user of maps, however I find the preset roads between potential starting squares to be a great idea and a practical way to encourage early trade. So, if doing so was an original idea, I'd call it brilliant.

	06-12-2001 22:38									#12
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quote: Originally posted by 9 ECAC Titles I *love* the France map, thank you. Well, thank you BTW, I am not an experienced user of maps, however I find the preset roads between potential starting squares to be a great idea and a practical way to encourage early trade. So, if doing so was an original idea, I'd call it brilliant.

That was not the original idea. Basically the map, after corrections, was supposed to become a scenario. Since it is not possible at the moment but that I had already placed luxuries from foreign routes, I thought that was needed. You have to be careful for roads lead your ennemies to u too.
The German player does not have road access though. That will be corrected in v1.1

Regards,

Ludovic