20-11-2001 14:07									#1
	Air units are MUCH better now! Enter the AD-FREE zone

Major improvement here in CIV3. It is so much better to just assign air units a mission now instead of moving them around enemy units the whole way. I really like how Firaxis has this setup with the air units, it works alot better this way.

	20-11-2001 14:24									#2
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Warlord

I have no problem with how you operate air units in Civ3. Big step up. The problem I have is that air units can't sink ships. This makes modern naval battles utterly unlike anything seen in history. Carrier aircraft sunk most of the warships in the Pacific in WWII. One current day US Nimitiz battle group would hose just about any other navy in the world on its own. (thats hard to say as an Aussie, but it's the truth!).

Planes can't destroy ground units, well OK, you could argue that, but most history shows that aircraft render armies inefective and ground troops clean up the remains. Fine. But ask the Imperial Japanese Navy. They would tell you clearly. Aircraft can sink ships.

Someone suggested that Fraxis just used the arty bombard code for the bombers with no changes. That does seem to be the case.

Damien

"Let's not go to Camalot, 'tis a silly place!" King Arthur - Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

	20-11-2001 14:52									#3
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agreed

civ2 did think about history (pearl harbor effect of aircraft attacking ships in port). but they abandoned that way of thinking

me thinks they were lazy and didn't want to program 2 different attack modes of aircraft.

	20-11-2001 15:03									#4
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They were dam lazy if you ask me, you should not have a game about civilization if it ignores some of the basic facts and certanies about it and what it does. e.g. goverments (Not Enough) and naval power. I just worry that they wont fix these in a patch but leave it,

	21-11-2001 00:14									#5
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Well the comp had land based artillery sink a few destroyers and a battleship of mine. I had some bombers that were beating land units but it was veteran bombers. I have not really tried attacking any ships yet. Maybe you need many planes attack a single ship to sink it and veteran planes. I guess it depends on the size/defense of the ship. After looking at the artillery the bombardment value is 12, a bomber is 8 and a fighter is 2 or 4. So if that artillery can hurt my ships really bad (just 2 artillery sank my destroyer) I imagine the planes can. Maybe if the bombardment value of the planes are increased it will take only a few to sink a ship. Anyway, after I am able to play a little more I will see how it works because like I said I had not been able to attack ships with planes very much yet. Just some ideas here.

	21-11-2001 00:46									#6
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PrinceBimz: I think that the game is specifically programmed so that planes can't sink ships.

I'd be interested to play a mod where planes did sink ships. I have a sneaking suspicion that most games would turn into a planefest, with a concommitent deterioration in gameplay. But seeing is believing...

	21-11-2001 00:59									#7
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but modern air war is basically a planefest .... or at least, a missile fest.

There's no much you can do about someone who pops up 200kms out and launches a one ton warhead at you at supersonic speeds except try shoot them down before they can launch - and that's why the F-14 was built.

methinks Firaxis should have got a decent believable combat system in instead of nerfing all the military - in the misguided attempt to make things "fair" for technologically backward players...

	21-11-2001 01:04									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Rakki methinks Firaxis should have got a decent believable combat system in instead of nerfing all the military - in the misguided attempt to make things "fair" for technologically backward players...

Exactly. If I have modern armor, I want to literally see them *run* over pikemen and musketmen. I didn't spend some hundred odd minerals just to lose it to some unit from centuries ago.

	21-11-2001 02:49									#9
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well i have been working on a mod to increase the importance of air power

check it out here
korn's blitz mod

one of the changes is that that air units have multiple moves now, so that means they can attack more than once per turn...a new version will be out either late tonight or sometime tommorrow

	21-11-2001 02:49									#10
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quote: Originally posted by PrinceBimz Well the comp had land based artillery sink a few destroyers and a battleship of mine. I had some bombers that were beating land units but it was veteran bombers. I have not really tried attacking any ships yet. Maybe you need many planes attack a single ship to sink it and veteran planes. I guess it depends on the size/defense of the ship. After looking at the artillery the bombardment value is 12, a bomber is 8 and a fighter is 2 or 4. So if that artillery can hurt my ships really bad (just 2 artillery sank my destroyer) I imagine the planes can. Maybe if the bombardment value of the planes are increased it will take only a few to sink a ship. Anyway, after I am able to play a little more I will see how it works because like I said I had not been able to attack ships with planes very much yet. Just some ideas here.

Mate, I can assure you, your cannot sink ships as the game currently is. The ship your attacking will get beaten down to the last red point, but the game will not let you attack the ship again until it's health points improve. You don't get the option to bomb it.

Damien

	21-11-2001 04:18									#11
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Planes can't kill any units on their own. Can't target workers or red-spot (last hit point) units. My planes won't intercept bombers either. Is Sid trying to tell us something?

	21-11-2001 05:24									#12
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Blaupanzer

the intercept function not working is a confirmed bug that firaxis is going to fix in their first patch for civ3

	21-11-2001 16:31									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Blaupanzer Planes can't kill any units on their own. Can't target workers or red-spot (last hit point) units. My planes won't intercept bombers either. Is Sid trying to tell us something?

So you are saying air units can bomb any unit down to red but not destroy it completely? If so that means its not just ships but all units. I could have sweared that I had destroyed some land units with my bombers, don't know. The only thing I can think maybe I damaged it really bad and it moved out of view. But I thought I destroyed it completely. Anyway I imagine this was a design decision to have it this way? I can tell you that my airforce wreaked havoc on several improvements and units. Without it I would have never been able to back up the chinese forces that were near my border.

	21-11-2001 17:08									#14
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quote: Originally posted by PrinceBimz I could have sweared that I had destroyed some land units with my bombers, don't know. The only thing I can think maybe I damaged it really bad and it moved out of view. But I thought I destroyed it completely.

I've played to the modern era thrice and i swear that never in these 3 different games did i have the chance to even target units that are down to their last drop of health. And yup, bombers are the best things in this game: just bomb out all roads, mines and irrigation and watch a seemingly impossible-to-conquer size 22 city implode from within.

	21-11-2001 19:11									#15
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You CAN target a unit with only one hit point. That is, you can do it IF there is another unit one the same square that has at least 2 HP
As this second unit will be "hidden" behind the other, you'll only see it when the bombing take place. And if it's reduced to one HP, then this could give the impression that you actually bombed the first one.

	21-11-2001 19:51									#16
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quote: Originally posted by mintaka_au Warlord I have no problem with how you operate air units in Civ3. Big step up. The problem I have is that air units can't sink ships. This makes modern naval battles utterly unlike anything seen in history.

Unlike Pyramids - they are realistically giving you free granary just like they did for Egypt. Also, why can't air units be as realistic as Leonardo's Workshop that upgraded Italian army in real life for half the cost).

	21-11-2001 20:34									#17
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Here's my thoughts on air units--

The more I play, the more convinced I become that Firaxis just cut & pasted the artillery code. I understand they were under time pressure, but I think that saying it was a "game balance" decision is a lame excuse.

Sure, game balance is important, but having FUN is even more important. Soren mentioned in the AI chat that he wanted naval superiority to require lots of ship building, not just lots of bombers. Well, I think the solution isn't to limit the bombers offense, but rather increase the ships defense. So here's a of suggested solution:

Keep the system the same, but with one important addition--allow air units to Attack naval units (and maybe ground units in open terrain). This way, air units can actually destroy ships and exposed land units, BUT they put themselves at risk in doing so. At the same time, certain units could have their defense increased against air units. Maybe create a mobile SAM unit. This way, bombers could either bombard and damage units with no risk (high altitude bombing), or attack and be able to kill but at risk of taking casualties.

	21-11-2001 20:50									#18
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Airpower could have been correctly implemented had they added an Anti-aircraft unit. The unit could only defend against ground attacks but could attack air units that attacked the hex it was in and all hexes surrounding it. Possibly an upgrade with computers to give it a 2 reaction range with computers.

Then aircraft could destroy units...if it dared.

	21-11-2001 20:55									#19
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quote: Originally posted by kruton Keep the system the same, but with one important addition--allow air units to Attack naval units (and maybe ground units in open terrain). This way, air units can actually destroy ships and exposed land units, BUT they put themselves at risk in doing so. At the same time, certain units could have their defense increased against air units. Maybe create a mobile SAM unit. This way, bombers could either bombard and damage units with no risk (high altitude bombing), or attack and be able to kill but at risk of taking casualties.

I think you have made a good case but also explained why Firaxis did not do it. A couple of early screen shots had AA units on the map. This would have meant adding anti-air attack and defence strengths to all units and extra units specifically dedicated to shooting down planes. In the end, they chose to keep it simple instead. Planes have managed to sink individual ships (never whole fleets) but their loss rates have been much higher. Implementing a 1 in 8 chance of success while being shot down 5 times in 8 would not have made many people happy either. With carriers involved you also get into the whole M.A.D. scenario too about why can't they launch their fighters to intercept yours or counterstrike your carriers vs how CAP missions should work. All of these are better left to a proper wargame.

	21-11-2001 21:02									#20
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quote: Originally posted by PrinceBimz So you are saying air units can bomb any unit down to red but not destroy it completely? If so that means its not just ships but all units. I could have sweared that I had destroyed some land units with my bombers, don't know. The only thing I can think maybe I damaged it really bad and it moved out of view. But I thought I destroyed it completely. Anyway I imagine this was a design decision to have it this way? I can tell you that my airforce wreaked havoc on several improvements and units. Without it I would have never been able to back up the chinese forces that were near my border.

The fact that bombardment can't kill units doesn't make art or bombers useless. Maybe you thought you were killing units with the artillery or bombers because they attacked a stack and the damaged unit went to the bottom after the attack(always happens to bring up a fresh defender)

	21-11-2001 21:10									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Herder Airpower could have been correctly implemented had they added an Anti-aircraft unit. The unit could only defend against ground attacks but could attack air units that attacked the hex it was in and all hexes surrounding it. Possibly an upgrade with computers to give it a 2 reaction range with computers. Then aircraft could destroy units...if it dared.

What's needed is a worker command to build an airbase(no resources bonuses like in civ2 just a fortress that can station air units) where air units can run air superiority missions and bombing missions outside of a city or carrier. It would have to be built on flat terrain(plains,grassland, floodplane, or tundra) and would also have fortress like defensive benefits for ground units protecting it. This would help with the problems and complaints about only being able to run a helicopter 4 squares from one of your cities as well, which unless you build a special city to act as a base is totally useless.

	21-11-2001 21:24									#22
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Yes, airbases should be added back into the game, but I don't think they should be like a fortress for defensive purposes, especially if you build one in enemy territory. Forward airbases are not traditionally hard targets...more like a clearing in forest or a streach of highway.... I also believe that airbases should be limited in the number of air units they can house, but maybe have an option to improve them with workers so that they can hold more units...and they can be DESTROYED by bombers, but fighters can also defend them. That doesn't sound too hard...they could add it like just another improvement.

	21-11-2001 22:18									#23
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Hmm, a bombable airbase improvement that can hold say 3 units? Sounds good to me!

	22-11-2001 12:49									#24
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I think some of you all have a few good ideas there. Even though aircraft cannot actually destroy a unit, I am still getting much use out of them. At last, I still prefer how the aircraft work here in CIV3 over how it was in CIV1/2, CTP1/2 and SMAC. I still think it is a very good improvement. I do agree however that aircraft should be able to completely destroy units. Other then that I love it.