20-11-2001 16:14									#1
	Copper, Zinc and Nickel Resources Mod Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

This mod adds copper, zinc and nickel resources to civ III with the resource statistics alterable using the editor until a good balance can be found. There is also a silver bonus resource although I cannot work out why it wont appear on the map.

Copper affects the gameplay at the start possibly slowing down the start of the bronze age due to the time it takes to access the copper ore as I have linked copper to most of the bronze age units and copper is also a requirement for many modern units (electronics).

Zinc is the colour of sphalerite (metallic brown), the main zinc ore but this resource has not been playtested but is a requirement for some middle and industrial age units.

Nickel is metallic blue and is a requirement for many modern units (see the civilopedia) but also has not been playtested so any comments on nickel and zinc would be appreciated.

Anyway here are the files (graphics, civilopedia and pedialcons) for copper, nickel, zinc and silver.

Notes
Changed gold so it occurs in deserts, such as western Australia (Kalgoorlie, West Africa and Nevada);
Oil so it occurs in sea squares;
Coal so it occurs in hills if it didn't before;
Aluminium occurs in jungle (most bauxite occurs in tropical weathering environments);
and horses and aluminium so they don't occur in hills as this appears to provide more space for other resource types as a lot occur in hills.

Copper
Strategic Resource
Requirements: Bronze Working
Occurrence = 240 (seems to be the best) Fairly abundant copper
Disappearance Probability 300

Terrain: hills and mountains
Shields 1
Commerce 1
Civilopedia GOOD_Copper

Units requiring copper
Spearmen (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron, but if you have iron then the more expensive swordsmen are available anyway)
Chariot (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron)
Archer (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron)
Horsemen (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron)
Hoplite (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron)
War chariot (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron)

Unplaytested units requiring copper
Infantry
Radar Artillery
Carrier
Submarine
Destroyer
Battleship
AEGIS Cruiser
Nuclear Submarine
Fighter
Bomber
Helicopter
Jet fighter
F-15
Stealth fighter and bomber
Colossus

Non-playtested Resources

Zinc
Strategic Resource
Requirements: Metallurgy (possibly earlier would be better to include musketmen, frigates etc.)
Occurrence = 160
Disappearance Probability 400

Terrain: Hills and Mountains
Shields 1
Commerce 1
Civilopedia GOOD_Zinc

Units requiring zinc
Cannon
Riflemen
Artillery
Infantry

Nickel
Strategic Resource
Requirements: Metallurgy (possibly earlier would be better)
Occurrence = 160
Disappearance Probability 400

Terrain: Hills and Mountains
Shields 1
Commerce 1
Civilopedia GOOD_Nickel

Units requiring Nickel
Riflemen
Artillery
Radar Artillery
Destroyer
Infantry
Tank
Panzer
Mech Infantry
Carrier
Submarine
Destroyer
Battleship
Nuclear Submarine

Silver
Bonus Resource
For some reason this doesn't appear.
Terrain: Hills, mountains and desert
Commerce +2 (half of gold)

civ3mod.bic file has some unit characteristic changes but nothing drastic and there are some changes to the English that you may wish to change back.

Cheers

The English Cossack

Attachment: additional resources.zip
This has been downloaded 1859 time(s).

	21-11-2001 02:02									#2
	Re: Copper, Zinc and Nickel Resources Mod Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Cossack This mod adds copper, zinc and nickel resources to civ III with the resource statistics alterable using the editor until a good balance can be found. There is also a silver bonus resource although I cannot work out why it wont appear on the map.

I would make the resource improvements minimal for zinc & nickel (maybe one extra trade), but copper should get at least two extra trade since it is also a luxury resource.

quote: Copper affects the gameplay at the start possibly slowing down the start of the bronze age due to the time it takes to access the copper ore as I have linked copper to most of the bronze age units and copper is also a requirement for many modern units (electronics).

Great idea! I love the notion of copper being useful early (bronze), then becoming obsolete with iron before finally becoming useful again with electronics!

Also, if phalanx/hoplites are now dependent on bronze, then you need to make iron-using versions (same stats) of them with the discovering of iron-working. Otherwise, no one would be able to build hoplites if they have iron but not bronze. The bronze versions should upgrade to the iron versions for neglible cost.

quote: Zinc is the colour of sphalerite (metallic brown), the main zinc ore but this resource has not been playtested but is a requirement for some middle and industrial age units. Nickel is metallic blue and is a requirement for many modern units (see the civilopedia) but also has not been playtested so any comments on nickel and zinc would be appreciated.

I wonder if adding zinc & nickel might be overkill, and if the AI will fight for them.

quote: Anyway here are the files (graphics, civilopedia and pedialcons) for copper, nickel, zinc and silver. Notes Changed gold so it occurs in deserts, such as western Australia (Kalgoorlie, West Africa and Nevada); Oil so it occurs in sea squares; Coal so it occurs in hills if it didn't before; Aluminium occurs in jungle (most bauxite occurs in tropical weathering environments); and horses and aluminium so they don't occur in hills as this appears to provide more space for other resource types as a lot occur in hills.

About oil in sea squares -- you might want to make this a separate "ocean oil" resource with the same graphic, and have it not be visible until refining. That way, our bronze age workers don't get any use from it.

Overall, these are well thought-out additions. I plan on incorporating them soon. Thanks again.

quote: Copper Strategic Resource Requirements: Bronze Working Occurrence = 240 (seems to be the best) Fairly abundant copper Disappearance Probability 300 Terrain: hills and mountains Shields 1 Commerce 1 Civilopedia GOOD_Copper Units requiring copper Spearmen (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron, but if you have iron then the more expensive swordsmen are available anyway) Chariot (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron) Archer (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron) Horsemen (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron) Hoplite (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron) War chariot (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron) Unplaytested units requiring copper Infantry Radar Artillery Carrier Submarine Destroyer Battleship AEGIS Cruiser Nuclear Submarine Fighter Bomber Helicopter Jet fighter F-15 Stealth fighter and bomber Colossus Non-playtested Resources Zinc Strategic Resource Requirements: Metallurgy (possibly earlier would be better to include musketmen, frigates etc.) Occurrence = 160 Disappearance Probability 400 Terrain: Hills and Mountains Shields 1 Commerce 1 Civilopedia GOOD_Zinc Units requiring zinc Cannon Riflemen Artillery Infantry Nickel Strategic Resource Requirements: Metallurgy (possibly earlier would be better) Occurrence = 160 Disappearance Probability 400 Terrain: Hills and Mountains Shields 1 Commerce 1 Civilopedia GOOD_Nickel Units requiring Nickel Riflemen Artillery Radar Artillery Destroyer Infantry Tank Panzer Mech Infantry Carrier Submarine Destroyer Battleship Nuclear Submarine Silver Bonus Resource For some reason this doesn't appear. Terrain: Hills, mountains and desert Commerce +2 (half of gold) civ3mod.bic file has some unit characteristic changes but nothing drastic and there are some changes to the English that you may wish to change back. Cheers The English Cossack

	21-11-2001 03:56									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Good work, but I think you have FAR TOO MANY units requiring Zinc, Nickel, & Copper. You also bring up a good point that we should have and "either or" option available in the editor.

	21-11-2001 13:24									#4
	Re: Re: Copper, Zinc and Nickel Resources Mod Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Ray K I would make the resource improvements minimal for zinc & nickel (maybe one extra trade), but copper should get at least two extra trade since it is also a luxury resource.

I will agree with you regarding copper, copper is a far larger market than nickel and zinc and probably deserves the extra trade point. I'll make the change.

quote: Originally posted by Ray K Great idea! I love the notion of copper being useful early (bronze), then becoming obsolete with iron before finally becoming useful again with electronics! Also, if phalanx/hoplites are now dependent on bronze, then you need to make iron-using versions (same stats) of them with the discovering of iron-working. Otherwise, no one would be able to build hoplites if they have iron but not bronze. The bronze versions should upgrade to the iron versions for neglible cost.

In my first real game I have found that this has not been a problem as swordsmen have been available to a player with iron while spearmen are available to the player with copper, the only difference is the production cost. However, I see what you are getting at. As I noted in the first message an either or (copper or iron) resource requirement option would be useful.

quote: Originally posted by Ray K I wonder if adding zinc & nickel might be overkill, and if the AI will fight for them.

Yet to see if the AI will fight for them, I only saw zinc for the first time last night, it looked pretty good. However the nickel graphic was linked to horses instead of the blue metallic ore in the resources file, I corrected the error but then nickel did not show up, but I think that is because it is a saved game. I will post a new resources mod when I find out what's happening to the silver.

Zinc is actually meant to be a zinc lead or lead zinc resource as the two tend to occur together in real life but I haven't got round to adjusting the graphic for lead. As a result I don't think it is overkill, and most of the units requiring zinc really require lead. Most modern naval units will require zinc unless they want to rust out, so for the moment I think its o.k., I need to test it some more. For example in the game modern armour requires aluminium, I'm not sure that this is true, I think modern armour actually uses various alloys including nickel in reality.

quote: Originally posted by Ray K About oil in sea squares -- you might want to make this a separate "ocean oil" resource with the same graphic, and have it not be visible until refining. That way, our bronze age workers don't get any use from it.

Good idea.

quote: Originally posted by Ray K Overall, these are well thought-out additions. I plan on incorporating them soon. Thanks again.

Thanks for all you constructive comments.

Would like to thank Plutarch for his advice when I was developing this mod.

Cheers

The English Cossack

	21-11-2001 19:59									#5
	Re: Re: Re: Copper, Zinc and Nickel Resources Mod Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Cossack In my first real game I have found that this has not been a problem as swordsmen have been available to a player with iron while spearmen are available to the player with copper, the only difference is the production cost. However, I see what you are getting at. As I noted in the first message an either or (copper or iron) resource requirement option would be useful.

Well, I've put some more thought into this change, and I still have some reservations about making so many units dependent on copper, zinc or nickel. Although I understand and appreciate your attention to accuracy (always a good thing), I think it could have serious gameplay ramifications.

It seems likely that a small civilization would be very restricted in the number of units it could build and this would be a big disadvantage.

With copper, this could happen early on if a civ does not start near copper deposits. Although historically accurate, the mechanics of the game make it unworkable. In Civ3, you start with only one city and therefore have access to a very limited number of terrain tiles. The chances of not getting copper in the game are very high.

In the real world, copper-age cultures already had many settlements with abundant access to copper in their region, not just one city. The requirement that they use copper for weapons was balanced with the fact that they already had access to a wide area of land from which to get copper. Implementing a realistic copper restriction in Civ3 without giving the ancient civs access to a far greater reach of land (say, by starting the game with 4 settlers) might make the game less balanced.

As far as zinc & nickel, I am concerned that making so many units dependent on them will make it easy for the player to stifle the military capability of the AI in the late game. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

However, I think copper can have an important place in Civ3. At a minimum, it is a luxury resource and would be a cool resource requirement for building the Research Lab, SETI or the Colossus (!).

These are thought-provoking ideas, and that makes them good ones.

Regards,
Ray
[/QUOTE]

	21-11-2001 20:33									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

If the "Ocean Oil" is ment to be a resource, how are we supposed to get to it. As far as I know, the only way to claim a resource is to build a a road to it. There is no way to build a road to a Ocean Square, unless there is an aspect to the game I have not seen yet.

CountZero

	21-11-2001 20:56									#7
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Copper, Zinc and Nickel Resources Mod Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Ray K Well, I've put some more thought into this change, and I still have some reservations about making so many units dependent on copper, zinc or nickel. Although I understand and appreciate your attention to accuracy (always a good thing), I think it could have serious gameplay ramifications. It seems likely that a small civilization would be very restricted in the number of units it could build and this would be a big disadvantage.

Small civilization, Ray this means that you are losing doesn't it!

quote: Originally posted by Ray K With copper, this could happen early on if a civ does not start near copper deposits. Although historically accurate, the mechanics of the game make it unworkable. In Civ3, you start with only one city and therefore have access to a very limited number of terrain tiles. The chances of not getting copper in the game are very high.

Actually this is quite a good point, as if you don't have copper it can be difficult to be so aggressive early on, but don't civilizations encounter these problems etc. in reality. The AI seems to survive pretty well without copper and will bombard you with warriors during the early stages, often taking your cities. Actually in my playtesting so far the problem is that by the time you access the copper ore (if it is some distance away) technology has progressed far enough so that iron has become available. If you like this varied option it is o.k., in my current game I lost copper after a number of turns, but then iron became available and I survived without copper.

quote: Originally posted by Ray K In the real world, copper-age cultures already had many settlements with abundant access to copper in their region, not just one city. The requirement that they use copper for weapons was balanced with the fact that they already had access to a wide area of land from which to get copper. Implementing a realistic copper restriction in Civ3 without giving the ancient civs access to a far greater reach of land (say, by starting the game with 4 settlers) might make the game less balanced.

Not being an archeologist I couldn't comment, but I could alter the mod so that copper dependant units only occur later in the industrial and modern eras.

The only thing I can add is that trade in metals was commonplace in the ancient era and you can do this in the game, if you really need a resource you should be able to trade something for it in civ III. The same argument can be made for iron, can you survive without it but in this mod there are an number of resources at an early stage so hopefully you should be able to trade one of your resources for another resource. There is another thread that discusses this at length somewhere. I have set the copper abundance parameter to 240 which means that there should be at least 24 copper resources in the world.

quote: Originally posted by Ray K As far as zinc & nickel, I am concerned that making so many units dependent on them will make it easy for the player to stifle the military capability of the AI in the late game. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

I'm just getting into this phase of playtesting so hopefully soon I will be able to give you a more informed opinion.

Forgot to add in the original note that copper is required to build the Colossus, incidently it was just after I built it that I lost my copper resource, maybe that was pure coincidence only.

Kind regards

The English Cossack

	21-11-2001 21:52									#8
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Copper, Zinc and Nickel Resources Mod Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Cossack Small civilization, Ray this means that you are losing doesn't it!

Yes, but even small civilizations have access to copper. However, the Civ3 map breaks down the world into tiles in which only one resource is available. In the real world, a region of hills (=one tile on Civ3 map) might have gold, iron, and copper. So a small civ in the real world has much easier access to common metals like copper.

For this point, I am leaning towards making copper a luxury resource in general and a strategic resource only for special early-game improvements (Colossus) or late-game improvements where a Civ has access to more tiles.

It's not that I don't think that copper resources are a bad idea. On the contrary, I like it. But the compromises made in the Civ3 game work against making copper a strategic resource for the early game.

quote: Actually this is quite a good point, as if you don't have copper it can be difficult to be so aggressive early on, but don't civilizations encounter these problems etc. in reality.

In reality, though, early civs had easy access to copper. It may be that we can simply assert that copper is assumed to be abundant enough for a civ's normal needs (weapons), but that a copper resource tile is needed if they want to have enough excess ore to warrant luxury bonuses or for something monumental like the Colossus. With this rationale, you could reduce its frequency on the map as well, if that made it easier to fit in the other ores.

quote: The AI seems to survive pretty well without copper and will bombard you with warriors during the early stages, often taking your cities. Actually in my playtesting so far the problem is that by the time you access the copper ore (if it is some distance away) technology has progressed far enough so that iron has become available. If you like this varied option it is o.k., in my current game I lost copper after a number of turns, but then iron became available and I survived without copper. Not being an archeologist I couldn't comment, but I could alter the mod so that copper dependant units only occur later in the industrial and modern eras.

I'm not suggesting you change the mod. I will probably be "picking and choosing" what I like from everyone's mods, so these are based so much on individual preference. I simply appreciate the good ideas.

	21-11-2001 21:58									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by CountZero If the "Ocean Oil" is ment to be a resource, how are we supposed to get to it. As far as I know, the only way to claim a resource is to build a a road to it. There is no way to build a road to a Ocean Square, unless there is an aspect to the game I have not seen yet. CountZero

Very good point, although Civ1 had a bug in which you could build roads in ocean squares!

At a minimum, you could at least get the additional shields from working the square.

Another problem caused by making "Ocean Oil" a separate resource from "Oil" is that it couldn't be used to satisfy the prerequisites for units and improvements that require "Oil". But since you can't build a road to it anyway, it's a moot point.

But getting the extra shields from working the square would still be a plus. Also, "Refining" was the wrong advance. I think that "Miniaturization" is the proper advance, since that is when you can build the "Offshore Platform"

	21-11-2001 22:18									#10
	Support Apolyton

Ray K,
Hi, I like some ideas of your mod but I also have a few quibbles. I'd posted elsewhere some ideas about changing resources in the game, maybe you'd want to incorporate some of these:


1. I see the need for two new strategic resources. First is Tin. Why Tin, you ask? In the same way that Saltpeter is the limiting feature in the making of gunpowder, tin was the limiting factor in the making of bronze. In history people traded far and wide to get tin - for instance mediterranean powers going thousands of miles into uncivilized lands to trade with tribal people in southern England for tin. Tin would be very common since one doesn't want to trip up civs too much early. It would be needed for some bronze age units.

2. Second needed strategic resource: Timber. In ancient times, not all civs could build navies - only civs with access to very long and broad timber could build ships. Compare for instance Phoenicia which became a huge naval power because of their forests, and Egypt, which had to hire out mercanaries for virtually all their naval needs cos they had no forests at all. All ships up to Ironclad would need this. Perhaps Catapult and a few other things as well.

3. Luxury resources should occasionally come later with certain technologies, and should disappear over time even more than strategic resources do. Think about it. People's tastes in luxuries changed greatly over time. Silks were the end all be all luxury for a while in ancient times, but now are no big deal. Spices used to be incredibly important to keep food from rotting on long voyages, but died out in importance with refrigeration and so forth. There should be some modern luxuries in the game as the old ones die out - tobacco, opium, coffee, exotic fruits, and so forth.

What would be the impact on gameplay? You'd have to be on your toes more to keep your civ happy. The trade situation would be more fluid.

-----

Now, given that, I see that you've gone for Copper instead of Tin. The one nice thing about Copper is how it does "bounce back" in importance later on. But I do think Tin was the really vital resource in the Bronze Age, and Copper at that time is better represented as a Bonus Resource.

I also think that one should be very limited in the number of ancient units that require Copper (or, replace with Tin). You have way too many. That far back, its virtually impossible to trade with other civs, because there aren't roads connecting each other's capitals yet.

If I look at this list:

Spearmen (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron, but if you have iron then the more expensive swordsmen are available anyway)
Chariot (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron)
Archer (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron)
Horsemen (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron)
Hoplite (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron)
War chariot (wanted to do an either or, copper / iron)

Horsemen and Chariots, are already tough enough to get Horse for. You wouldn't want a unit that far back needing two resources. Archer - that doesn't really need a lot of metal in the first place. So you're left with Spearmen and Hoplite, maybe some other special units (Immortals for instance?). Add Colossus, and that should be enough, IMHO. Perhaps also put another prereq to Iron Working, so the Bronze Age lasts longer.

This way, its good to get Copper (or Tin), but if you don't, life goes on. Unless you need it for your special unit.

Zinc and Nickel I must say I'm ignorant about their strategic uses. Perhaps you could fill in my missing knowledge on these.

I also think that if you go for offshore oil, it should be as a Bonus Resource with very good stats, since one can't actually build a road to it. And the frequency and disappearance rates of some of the other resources need to be changed - I hear alot of complaints about how Oil and Rubber especially are too rare and disappear too fast.

	22-11-2001 00:45									#11
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Harlan Ray K, Hi, I like some ideas of your mod but I also have a few quibbles. I'd posted elsewhere some ideas about changing resources in the game, maybe you'd want to incorporate some of these:

Harlan,
Good comments, but this mod is Cossack's.

Also, I'm kind of leaning against adding the early resources because (copper, tin, etc) simply because they were so common. It is not unrealistic to assume that they are simply available to everyone.

I still like Copper for a luxury resource, though, and for the Colossus (it is a wonder, after all).

	22-11-2001 05:24									#12
	Put an end to popups!

Oops,
Sorry about that - I was thinking about Ray's last post when I typed that!

Copper was common, but tin wasn't common at all. In the ancient Med world, virtually the only sources of tin were two spots in Iberia, one in Brittany and one in southern England. So places like Egypt or Turkey had to go reaaally far for their tin.

That's why I'm arguing for tin as a strategic resource, cos you have to have it to make bronze, and it by far was the limiting factor of tin or copper.

	22-11-2001 05:55									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Hello,

You might have covered this, but here goes: If you make oil available in sea squares, be sure to increase its appearance as well. I could be wrong but I believe the game only allows a set number of resource types to be on the map at a given time so there could be a situation where oil occurs almost entirely at sea, where it won't be accessible.

Adam

	22-11-2001 07:57									#14
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Well, I've put some more thought into this change, and I still have some reservations about making so many units dependent on copper, zinc or nickel. Although I understand and appreciate your attention to accuracy (always a good thing), I think it could have serious gameplay ramifications. Horsemen and Chariots, are already tough enough to get.

Exactly. The reason I objected was also for gameplay balance.

Regarding Oil in the Ocean - Bad Idea. I liked it at first too, but it creates too many problems. 1st, I've seen too many posts from newbies just in the general forum saying, "Why is their oil in the water?! I can't reach it. Firaxis fix this!" 2nd, as oil spots disappear from the land they will start to appear in the water... soon the only oil that exists is in the water... unreachable. 3rd, you would have to increase oil's appearance ratio to offset it's uselessness when it appears in the coast/sea. However, a Pangea map will have FAR less coast/sea than Archipelago will. Thus, you will never have a balanced amount of oil if you place oil in the ocean... unfortunately. Maybe the upcoming patch will provide more opportunities for this work correctly... until then it's just not a good idea.

	22-11-2001 09:42									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think you all are letting things get a little out of hand. Firaxis has specifically said that a number of units were designed to be built with no special resources simply because they realize that there will be games when certain strategic resources are not available to certain civs.

By adding too many strategic resources things become overly complicated, and the value of certain things becomes unbalanced.
You can argue til your blue in the face about history and realism, but the simple matter is this a game, and a balanced one. Don't to badly upset the balance or it becomes unplayable.

	22-11-2001 11:54									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

That is the wonderfull thing about mods, if you have a subset of players who LIKE to play it complicated, then they can. If you do not like the changes, no one is forcing anyone to use them.

Some mods have a goal of Balance, other historical accuracy, others, just change it up for the fun of it. Whatever the case may be, if you are interested in a particular mod, then post suggestions, but if a mod does not interest you, or if you do not agree with the goal of the mod, then there is no need to post.

In otherwords, if someone wants to tie every single unit/building to a different reasource, then they have every right to, reguardless of the vision or goals or intentions of Firaxis.

CountZero

	22-11-2001 13:26									#17
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Another possibility for bringing in the copper idea but not making it overimportant in the earliest part of the game is to bring it in around currency, a point in the game where many cities have been established. I was wondering why the game had no references to things like copper nec. for marketplaces or papyrus/ paper for libraries. The coolest idea i think that i spotted in this thread was the timber idea...is their any way to link the forest overlay on a tile to prerequisites for units/buildings. Can buildings have resource requirements for that matter? (I'm still afraid that the scenario editor will be in effect a one way door from which ill never return, ive been systematically avoiding it due to recent civ related social concerns... )

	22-11-2001 15:47									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by CountZero That is the wonderfull thing about mods, if you have a subset of players who LIKE to play it complicated, then they can. If you do not like the changes, no one is forcing anyone to use them. Some mods have a goal of Balance, other historical accuracy, others, just change it up for the fun of it. Whatever the case may be, if you are interested in a particular mod, then post suggestions, but if a mod does not interest you, or if you do not agree with the goal of the mod, then there is no need to post. In otherwords, if someone wants to tie every single unit/building to a different reasource, then they have every right to, reguardless of the vision or goals or intentions of Firaxis. CountZero

Thanks for the support CountZero,

Obviously everyone can use the scenario editor to change which units require what and what abundance each resource should have, in this respect the editor is very easy to use.

Anyway I am in the process of reducing the copper requirements for early age units this will be included in an updated resources updated mod to be posted soon.

Tried to introduce tin however, there appears to be a problem getting it to appear on the map, this is a graphics problem, and I have encountered the same situation with the silver resource. Plutarch has told me that he will look into it when he has some free time. Until we locate the problem it appears that I can only add the copper and zinc resource pictures.

With regards to tin, players have the same resource complaint regarding abundance of and accessing the ore to build the units that require it in the ancient era period, the same complaint that was put forward about copper. However, tin's usage since this period has dropped dramatically since this time and in the modern era appears to have limited military applications from a gaming point of view.

I have changed zinc to Lead-Zinc as the two metals occur so frequently together in reality. Lead zinc becomes available on the discovery of invention and is a requirement for many middle age gunpowder units and modern era units. Once I update the graphic I will post it here.

I will increase the abundance of oil and coal, coal was two low anyway and so was oil 120 or two resources per player, when in reality either coal and/or oil occur in many countries to some extent, whether it is economical to extract them is an entirely different question.

I will also update the civilopedia files accordingly, there are some errors at present. Comments regarding nickel, please see the civilopedia file or inspect the US Geological Survey's desription of nickel, its occurrence and applications.

I think that there is a timber resource in the resource.pcx file I know someone mentioned it, but until I find out what is stopping more certain graphics appearing on the map it is fairly pointless adding it and also I think its relevance is limited.

The English Cossack

	22-11-2001 17:34									#19
	New Ressources Increase Your PM Length

Thanks a lot for your job.

I appreciate Civ mods a lot, for the freedom you have to use them or not.

I agree nevertheless about the fact that playability can be hampered by early needed ressources.

On the other hand, I will definitely use bronze, timber (cedar), papyrus... for ancient scenarii or modpacks. So it is a good move.

Thanks for the initiation...

Regards,

	23-11-2001 21:09									#20
	Got spare money?

At present tin is near essential to the electronics industry as it is used to make solder. For many years the US kept vast quantities of tin in its strategic materials reserve because of the problems encountered during WWII when the Japanese captured nearly all the worlds main tin producing areas.

Ian

	29-11-2001 01:31									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

If you want oil in the ocean, just let it appear on any beach square. This will represent how its in the ocean, and can be accesed from this area of beach. but its still kinda pointless.

and adding too many strategic resources will just bog down the game. unless you add lots of units as well. which will be . . . . confusing.

	29-11-2001 19:47									#22
	Support Apolyton

Hey, Cossack -- let me know what you and Plutarck figure out about the graphics problem. I too have been trying to add resources (a few of them slightly different from yours), but I am running into the same problem, i.e. the game recognizes the resources, but does not make them visible. I went through last night (after beating my head against the wall for the last 2 weeks) and just put colored blotches in the second to last and last row of resources (the empty ones). Nothing, man. Nothing.

I don't think the game is programmed to look in those squares, I think they might be blanks used by the graphics team similar to the last row of units in civ II (although eventually, a version of civ II came out that allowed you to use those squares).

At any rate, dfm3013@aol.com if you wanna co-miserate.

You are right about the "and/or" function, I wish there was a way to implement that!!

	30-11-2001 20:39									#23
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Having this problem too.
Thing is, you can see the graphic in the Editor, and not just the rules editor, you can see it on the map editor too. But not in the game, weird.

	30-11-2001 23:52									#24
	How about silicon??? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I think I'll try adding silicon as a required resource (since there are not enough late in the game). I figure it could be enabled with the discovery of computers and would be required to build the following units:

Modern Armor
Aegis Cruiser
Stealth Bomber
Stealth Fighter

That way (except maybe for the bomber) it would not cause a serious balance issue. If anyone is interested, please note it here and I'll post the files.

	01-12-2001 07:28									#25
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

As long as we're talking about resources....

How about either adding or changing the luxuries. I saw someone mention this earlier in the thread. Some luxuries seem to have been forgotten.

Two of the main ones are Tea and Sugar. Especially Tea. There was a whole period in the history of the UK where clippers were sent ridculous distances to obtain it. Sugar is the basis of some counties whole economies.

How about Tobacco, coffee (already mentioned I think), and cocoa. If I recall correctly, there was a big thing in the news a while back saying that there might be a world cocoa shortage some time in the near future because supply can not keep up with demand due to the growing conditions of the plant.

Salt, maybe? Some places in the world make money from their salt-flats. It could be added as a desert resource.

I do think that Timber would make a good strategic resource as without it we dont have paper, which lets face it, is fairly important.

Someone mentioned Silicon as a Strategic Resource, but I'm not sure about this one as it can be restricting to some Civs. The reason is that Silicon is the most abundant resource in the natural world, so everyone already has it, so no-one today has to get it from anyone.

I like civ 3, but I do feel that some resources, strategic or luxury, are a little too rare. In my last game Rubber and Saltpeter were a bit of a nightmare as I recall.

	03-12-2001 07:40									#26
	Generalizations aside, my own opinion of the mod Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'm not going to make any broad conclusions about mods or extra resources "breaking" the game or whatnot, just say what I think about THIS mod.

I liked the idea of extra resources (this is the first mod I felt was worthy of any attention!), yet I have found that having copper needed for such crucial early units as spearmen is very painful. I have not (in the two games using this mod to date) been without copper, but it has been distanced enough from my cities as to be a major issue slowing down my early development. Also, those new cities in crucial spots, where you need a city before even building a road to your capital from there, can no longer build any adequate defense for ages. I've had some hairy encounters with the conveniently copper rich English as a result of this.

I do suggest ppl try this (NB watch out for the zinc picture - it is misrepresented on the map with the horse icon - is easy to fix in the editor), BUT be warned, you may be without decent units until iron or even much later in the game if your cities aren't all connected..

	03-12-2001 10:25									#27
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by taffarel As long as we're talking about resources.... How about either adding or changing the luxuries. Two of the main ones are Tea and Sugar. Especially Tea. There was a whole period in the history of the UK where clippers were sent ridculous distances to obtain it. Sugar is the basis of some counties whole economies. How about Tobacco, coffee (already mentioned I think), and cocoa.

Hey you ripped off my old luxuries thread almost verbatim! I posted a thread many days ago about new luxuries, and I mentioned specifically sugar, tobacco, and coffee...

Great minds think alike...I'd like to see more, but rarer, luxuries. Maybe only a clump of 2 or 3 max...instead of the huge clumps of 4 you can find now. And much fewer of them. This will emphasize trade and encourage friendly networks...

Venger

	03-12-2001 15:47									#28
	Get a bigger avatar today!

O.K. after alot of testing here is an updated resources mod, with some changes to naval movement as well, hope this addresses some of the problems people noted earlier about copper, oil etc.

Firstly copper is only a requirement in order to build the Colossus in the ancient era.

Zinc has now become Lead-Zinc as the lead mineral galena and the zinc mineral sphalerite occur together frequently in real life ore deposits/concentrations plus the graphic has altered slightly.

Due to graphical problems I have had to delete incense and replaced it with nickel (blue ore graphic).

Changed oil back to only occuring on land and increased its appearance ratio to 160 (originally 120) and decreased its disappearance probability to 1 chance in 100 every turn).

Tundra now can have iron, gold, copper, lead-zinc, gems and nickel deposits to reflect the presence of these deposits in northern regions of Russia and Canada in addition to the previous resources.

Desert now can have gold, oil and nickel (Australian nickel-laterite deposits)

Aluminium in plains, forest and jungles to relect the need for flat or more importantly a recent tropical weathering environment.

Hills and mountains hold copper, nickel and lead-zinc deposits.

Updated the civilopedia for unit requirements, in general no ancient civilization units require copper

Middle ages' units with saltpetre require lead-zinc e.g. musketmen, cannon, privateer etc.

Riflemen and infantry units require nickel and lead-zinc.

Ironclad now requires lead-zinc as well.

Most modern naval units require lead-zinc and copper except aegis cruiser that requires uranium and lead zinc as does the nuclear submarine.

All modern army units from riflemen onwards require nickel except radar artillery.

All aircraft units require copper.

Naval Movement, most units doubled
Exceptions:
Frigate and Man O'war movement 5
Ironclad movement 6
Transport movement 8

Destroyers can now see submarines

Submarine (both) attack doubled
Submarine (both) Movement 6

Detailed changes to natural resources

Coal
Appearance Probability: 240
(coal deposits are numerous throughout the world)

Disappearance Probability: 400
(most coal seams/ deposits are extremely large and if coal occurs in an area then there are generally a large number of similar deposits in the same area)

Terrain
Hills
Mountains (although coal shouldn't really occur in mountains as the tectonic temperatures and pressures converts the minerals into different forms)
Jungle

Oil
Appearance Probability: 160 (increased to 160 as there are numerous oil occurences throughout the world)

Disappearance Probability: 100 (most oil deposits/basins are extracted over a 10 to 30 year basis therefore deposits would appear to have less than 100 year lives)

Rubber - Same

Aluminium
2 Shields
2 Commerce

Appearance Probability: 120
Disappearance Probability: 400

Uranium
1 Shields
1 Commerce (Previously 3) as it does not have a large commercial market in comparison with other metals and large quantities are not required.

Appearance Probability: 100
Disappearance Probability: 100

Copper
1 Shields
2 Commerce

Appearance Probability: 160
Disappearance Probability: 200
Requires (Bronze-working)

Lead-Zinc
1 Shields
1 Commerce

Appearance Probability: 160
Disappearance Probability: 200
Requires (Invention)

Nickel
1 Shields
1 Commerce

Appearance Probability: 120
Disappearance Probability: 200
Requirements (Metallurgy)

Attachment: resources update ii.zip
This has been downloaded 120 time(s).

	05-12-2001 03:43									#29
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Could someone explain (or ICQ) me with how you can add new resources? I would like to add a select group of resources:
Copper
Tin
Salt
Sugar
Coffee
Tea
Tobacco
I have not seen a mod to deal with all of these. I guess I am hoiping someone will take me aside and help me get going with these.

K

	06-12-2001 08:22									#30
	My Review (played mod to modern age) Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Frankly, I like the mod. Good work Cossack. Rather than tell you what I think needs to be changed, let me tell you how the changes played out in the 20+ games I played with your mod installed.

I don't recall ever being seriously hampered by a lack of copper. In fact it seems to me that copper is now the most abundant resource in the game. In one game as the Russians, my second city had seven copper deposits within its radius. My only beef about copper availability is that it seems that you increased the rate at which deposits dissappear and reappear. Over half of the time immediately after building a road to my first (and sometimes only) copper deposit, it would disappear on the very same turn. Very annoying.

The AI acts strangely when it does not have copper. Playing the Egyptians, the Romans right next to me had iron but no copper. Meaning they had many legions but no spearmen. Even though legions have a defense of 3, Rome chose to garrison all its cities with barbarians who have a defense of 1. This is because the game does not flag legions as being defensive units. The numerically superior Romans were wiped out with bright yellow charriots with only a 2 attack strength.

In the same game, I had no access to nickel. I fought a huge war with China to obtain saltpeter, only to discover that I could not build riflemen or infantry in the next age. My musketmen fell like field mice under a rotary mower to angry Babylonian infanry. (I say keep it this way!)

Current game, playing as India. I have discovered refining, and to my great dismay ALL of the oil resources but one are in the ocean (!!!). The one land-based oil deposit is in Northern Germany, on the exact opposite side of the globe.
I am piling infantry and marines on galleons and sending them halfway 'round the world to take the one city with the oil. I expect to be met by battleships, fighters, and panzers by the time I get there. Wish me luck.