21-11-2001 03:09									#1
	Strategic Resources (Coal) Tired of ads?

I'm in the middle of my first game, have just discovered Steam Power, but can't find any coal!

I have searched the entire map, and none of the other civs have it either. Which begs the question, what can I do? Should I have my workers mine all the hills in my control? Is there a way to develop the land in order to find coal?

Please help.

Thanks

	21-11-2001 03:10									#2
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There's coal somewhere on the map.

	21-11-2001 03:15									#3
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Well, there has to be a source of coal somewhere.
Do you have a map oof all land? Tyr searching for coal on enemy territories some more - it is sometimes hard to see, if you have fog of war visible and if there is a mine on the resource square.

See, if you can find coal on the screenshot :

Attachment: coal.jpg
This has been downloaded 655 time(s).

	21-11-2001 03:32									#4
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You won't see the resources until you've discovered the technology to use it.

It sort of makes sense. Im sure before the internal combustion engine, most people viewed oil as a relatively useless substance.

	21-11-2001 03:36									#5
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Try using one of the mods that labels each resource so they are easier to find. The coal resources could be under a mine somewhere, with the graphics mods they cannot hide.

	21-11-2001 03:55									#6
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Control-shift-M makes things a lot easier. And be sure to double-check jungle squares.

	21-11-2001 04:01									#7
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wait until you have to find oil in tundras with forests on them...

talk about hard to see. I captured 3 sources and didn't even realize it. Even ctrl-shift-M has its limits.

	21-11-2001 04:10									#8
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right click on a suspected terrain and it should tell you what it is.

Unlike most of the game, which tends to be slow to load, the terrain feature loads and unloads quickly so you won't be annoyed by waiting for it.

	21-11-2001 04:38									#9
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Another way to get the coal resource, the Lazy Man's Way, is to sell Steam Power to the other civs. Each and every one of them. That in itself will get you a large amount of money.
Then the next turn, load up your F2 Trade Advisor screen. Listed next to some civs will be coal, all the ones that have a spare source of coal to trade with you. Proceed then to trade for coal, or now search for the coal in their territory so you can launch that invasion.

If you want to actually be able to see resources on the map thought, follow Star Mouse's advice, download a mod that labels the resources (in the files forum)

	21-11-2001 06:37									#10
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Sometimes the resource generation is just screwed up though. One time I was playing on a large map with 8 civs and I couldn't find coal anywhere. I certainly didn't have any and none of the other civs seemed to either. I searched high and low wondering how the hell this world was going to get through the industrial age. Then I suddenly see that Russia has no less than 7 deposits all heaped together in the middle of their territory. Greedy pigs!


BTW: An easy way to locate resources is to use the clean map option (Ctrl-Shift-M) to temporarily remove all the cities and improvements. You can press Ctrl-Shift-M again to put it back to normal once your done.

	21-11-2001 06:52									#11
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thanks for all the advice. Tomorrow, I'll give it hell!

	21-11-2001 08:17									#12
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quote: Sometimes the resource generation is just screwed up though. One time I was playing on a large map with 8 civs and I couldn't find coal anywhere. I certainly didn't have any and none of the other civs seemed to either. I searched high and low wondering how the hell this world was going to get through the industrial age. Then I suddenly see that Russia has no less than 7 deposits all heaped together in the middle of their territory. Greedy pigs!

Yeah, happened to me with oil once. What was worse was that the damn Babylonian only built a road to ONE of them... The rest was in the middle of a useless desert right in the middle of his heartland.

I know Firaxis claims that 'there will be at least one square of resource for each civ in the game', but that doesn't help much when the civ that has ALL OF THEM won't even develop the squares...

*Bah*

Back to playing HOMM3.

	21-11-2001 09:23									#13
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I have noticed that sometimes the AI (or maybe you) build cities on top of strategic resources, hiding them from view to even the most observant player. Right clicking on their cities helps. Once I was playing against the romans and I noticed they had horses (0 extra) to trade with me, but I couldn't find it on the map. Then I took over their city located on top of the horses.

	21-11-2001 10:35									#14
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Check the jungles- I noticed that coal seems to appear there most often.
oil should be seen before combustion.
Oil was first drilled in 1880something in my great state of Pennsylvania.they used oil for street lamps back then as well as
a lubricant among other uses.it was hardly a useless substance.
Coal was also used before steam power as a substute for firewood and a type of coal -charcoal- is a main ingredient for gunpowder.
It would be nice to see these things sooner than you can use them to plot future city sites.

	21-11-2001 11:22									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Evil_Eric_4 a type of coal -charcoal- is a main ingredient for gunpowder.

Actually, charcoal is not a type of coal. Charcoal is produced from wood by burning it with insufficient oxygen to burn the wood completely.

	21-11-2001 12:04									#16
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Well, the empirical chemical formula for wood is roughly CH2O(n).

This means that for every atom of carbon you have you also have to hydrogen and one oxygen.

When you burn the wood without oxygen, this chemical reaction occurs:

CH2O(s) -> H2O (g) + C(s).

The residual C(s) is pure graphite, i.e. coal.

This is of course the ideal reaction... In reality there are lots of other atoms in the wood, most notably nitrogen. It is also hard to make the burning completely free from oxygen, which leads to uneven quality of the charcoal.

Nevertheless, charcoal was the ingredient for gunpowder, as the charcoal is easy to grind into a powder, and the quality of the coal doesn't matter much.

The odd thing with this resource system is the salpeter... Since you extract it from urine, it is not exactly a resource.... Sulphur, on the other hand, being the third ingredient for gunpowder, IS a resource. Looks like the Firaxis people didn't do their homework...

	21-11-2001 13:00									#17
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Yeah, happened to me with oil once. What was worse was that the damn Babylonian only built a road to ONE of them... The rest was in the middle of a useless desert right in the middle of his heartland.

Did the Babylonians have Refining? If they don't know the oil is there, they might have no reason to build a road to the patch with oil.

quote: I know Firaxis claims that 'there will be at least one square of resource for each civ in the game', but that doesn't help much when the civ that has ALL OF THEM won't even develop the squares...

... or that they'll sell it to you. But really, if there were 8 squares of oil in the world and all were yours, what would you do? Sell the stuff equally to everyone so that all would live happily ever after (or at least until someone gets nukes), or sit on your oil barrels waiting to research Motorized Transport?

	21-11-2001 13:52									#18
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Kekkonen, yeah, he didn't have refining at the time. but that should work to my advantage, as several people have pointed out already...

Anyway, I think it is a problem with the game mechanics... Forcing the player to conduct diplomacy is one thing, but actually making it impossible to go further is something compleely different.

Look, I'm all in favor of more emphasis on trade over war. But this resource system is not exactly well thought out...

Maybe it should be set negative instead. Unless someone actively embargoes you, you should always be able to import oil. An embargo is also a declaration of war.

	21-11-2001 14:03									#19
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On my map, there are 2 sources of oil. I have one of them, the egyptians have the other.

4 other civs are stuffed though. They all have the prerequisite advances as well, and I've searched high and low for this stuff, believe me.

So, it's weird, I tell you

	21-11-2001 15:13									#20
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CyberGnu,

When you say

quote: The odd thing with this resource system is the salpeter... Since you extract it from urine, it is not exactly a resource.... Sulphur, on the other hand, being the third ingredient for gunpowder, IS a resource. Looks like the Firaxis people didn't do their homework...

I would have agreed with you at first. When Saltpetre (as it SHOULD be spelt! Americans, sheesh ) was first discussed in these forums, I was under the same impression, remembering my history lessons and King Charles's men seaching houses for "nightsoil" for the King's gunpowder supplies before the English Civil War. I did a bit of research, and it turns out there ARE large mine-able deposits of Saltpetre, usually in bat caves or similar, where large deposits of guano have built up over time. Scattered all over the world, too. Not usually in deserts, though.

So the Saltpetre deposits in the game are justifiable, if you want to be kind to Firaxis. I agree with you that Sulphur would have been better.

Better still would have been a resource of Nitrates. This would cover Potrassium Nitrate (Saltpetre) and Ammonium Nitrate (for making explosives). Thus the resource would be essential for modern weaponry, along with Oil. All of these resources should be artificially create-able, with the right tech.

If you have EVER had (or traded) Horses, and you research Horse Breeding before you lose them, you get to make mounted troops, even if you lose the naturally occuring resource.

If you have EVER had (or traded) Nitrates, and you research Industrial Chemistry (which would require Electricity), then you get to make Gunpowder- or Explosive-requiring units. This would leave a possible gap where you know about Gunpowder, but might not be able to make it in large quantities, sort of like Europe in the 16th and 17th centuries. Explosives would need other tech as well, of course.

If you have EVER had (or traded) Oil, and you research Chemical Synthesis.....you get the idea.

This would preserve some value in strategic resources, but not make them the game-unbalancing factor they sometimes seem to be.

Remind me, did Firaxis ever float this resource idea in the user groups before they released it? It seems that they should have, anyway. I like the idea a lot, but it's implementation seems a bit flaky.

Could say that about a lot of Civ III it seems to me.

	21-11-2001 15:22									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Calorman Sometimes the resource generation is just screwed up though. One time I was playing on a large map with 8 civs and I couldn't find coal anywhere. I certainly didn't have any and none of the other civs seemed to either. I searched high and low wondering how the hell this world was going to get through the industrial age. Then I suddenly see that Russia has no less than 7 deposits all heaped together in the middle of their territory. Greedy pigs!

haha, you should have formed a low-tech coalition against them

	21-11-2001 18:26									#22
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About saltpeter: it's only useful for a very limited time; is there any use for the stuff once Musketmen, Cavalry, and Frigates are obsolte? Also, doesn't the Civilopedia description of Riflemen say something about them not needing any special resources to build due to the realization that saltpeter is everywhere, or did I just dream that up?

	22-11-2001 00:06									#23
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PE, while you can find natural sources of nitrates (it occurs as crusts on the surface of the Earth, on walls and rocks, and in caves; and it forms in certain soils in Spain, Italy, Egypt, Iran, and India), in Europe it was actually 'farmed' in saltpetre plantations, or 'nitriaries'. You mix a bunch of decaying organic matter with lime and let it stand in contact with oxygen.

The natural deposits of salpeter should be treated like they were in other civ games... It gives a nice production bonus, since it is cheaper to dig stuff out of the ground than to produce it yourself, but it is by no means necessary.

Again, sulphur is a natural resource, up until the invention of metallurgy (which gives you more sulphur than you can handle as a by-product of the ore roasting). You think that Firaxis could have spent five minutes asking a chemist about this... Or just looked it up in any major encyclopedia.

	22-11-2001 00:48									#24
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PE, I like that idea a lot, of using later techs to gain artificial access to resources. The problem then is, why trade resources (except in the window of time before the new tech)? Why invade for resources (ditto)? What good are embargoes then? I think a possible answer is to limit the usefulness of a source of a resource. Let one saltpeter mine, for example, allow one musketman per city in your empire. The artificial source from the later tech would do the same. If you want more, then you'll have to go out and find some in the wide world. This way whoever has got loads of it in their backyard will still have a tangible advantage.

Unfortunately, on reflection, this seems like it would be hard to implement. It might necessitate a revamping of the whole trading process, as you'd want to be able to trade for a certain amount of a resource, rather than just trade for it period. Still, it would be nice, and would make for better gameplay, methinks...

... maybe an idea for Mr. Patchy-Patchy? If only...

	22-11-2001 01:29									#25
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I'd prefer if there was some sort of quality difference. If you have an oil patch you can build regular tanks, but if you don't have oil your tanks are going to have the stats reduced by 2,2,1 or something like that.

IIRC, german tanks in WWII were forced to run on gasoline due to the nature of the oil in bulgaria/rumania. Gasoline is not a good choice of fule for a tank, since it
A) gives less torque than diesel
B) Tends to blow up quite spectacularly

South Africa during the boycott, having almost no access to oil at all built ethanol fueled armored cars. A lot less range than diesel, but it works...

	22-11-2001 02:25									#26
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The problem with all your "solutions" to the resource problem is the micromanaging nightmare you'd have.

The key problem is that the resource part of the game makes little historical/reality sense when put to close scrutiny, but if you look at it broadly, then it does make historical sense.

Yes, wars were fought over .... um ... um ... oil and rubber (sort of). But bringing that concept to iron, coal, aluminum, etc. makes a lot less sense.

Especially when you think - what's running all these factories? Water? Steam power my wood? Wheres the wood resource?

Eventually, resources shouldn't be an issue - except oil, since there are synthetics or alternatives for everything. Or, eventually, with modern mining techniques, once rare resources become common (like iron, coal, gold).

Which is especially true for luxuries. Since when are spices a luxury item? I don't know about you, but salt doesn't really do it for me anymore. Plus with artificial flavoring, some scientists/technicians can make a piece of paper smell and taste like prime rib.

	22-11-2001 03:17									#27
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Why would having two different tanks increase micromanagement? Especially if the bad one isn't upgradeable to the second (once it is built, it is built, sort of).