21-11-2001 08:24									#1
	Dip 50, Imp3 Summer RETREATS and Fall 1868 DEADLINE Remove this text

Would have had these out this weekend, but the fan on my CPU heatsink died. Took me several days to find a suitable replacement fan\heatsink for a creaky old machine like my Pentium II...

JAPAN

F SoJAPAN -> EDO

CSA

F GoGUINEA -> CAMEROON

DEADLINE

Fall 1868 Orders:
Thursday, Nov. 29th @ 11:59pm

	21-11-2001 18:29									#2
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http://www.geocities.com/ruffhaus8/IMPERIAL/S1868.gif

	26-11-2001 08:41									#3
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I'm sorry, but I just don't have the time, interest, or inclination to continue playing. I've been bored sick with this game for the past three or four game years and have only been staying on because it is inevitable that whoever replaces me will sell out Victor in some shady deal. Now, I have three major end-of-the-semester projects to work on, and I don't have time to stay involved in so many things. As such, you'll have to either find a new Holland or have Victor write up proxy moves or something. I just don't have the time anymore.

	26-11-2001 09:10									#4
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*waves*

	26-11-2001 20:09									#5
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I preffer the Victor making up orders variant

	27-11-2001 07:10									#6
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I bet you do, Victor. Somehow, I feel that wouldn't be the wise decision.

	27-11-2001 08:18									#7
	Suffering from ads?

Well if Scott feels it's the best option, he can do that instead of giving up the country, it's his right, and it saves us the trouble of hiring a replacement.

That and it gives us some chance of stopping Ruff's solo, since you and Britain are obviously too spineless to do that

	27-11-2001 11:13									#8
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I wouldn't mind proxying Holland if it was simply a 4 dot power. However, Holland is one of the major players on the map. I need a legitimate replacement.

	27-11-2001 18:51									#9
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I don't have a problem letting Victor accept a proxy from Scott for a turn or two if the real reason Scott is stepping aside is his busy schedule. One might even argue that Victor's essentially been making these moves all along.

The problem here is by Scott's own admission. He's bored with the game. This is probably because he's playing it gunboat, except for his dealings with Victor. Well, it's no small wonder that the game is boring and units are stalemated when you don't talk to the other players.

I have received ZERO pieces of diplomatic correspondence in this game from Holland. Now you could say that is due to the fact that I am at war with Holland, but then again that tends to happen why players don't talk to me. And even so, I was at war with England at one time in this game too. Still I'd been willing to bet that very few other nation have seen negotiations with Holland of any kind. And that's the thing to remember here. The game isn't just chess on a Risk map.

I think Michael is right that we need a permanent player for Holland. Maybe if include the map link in your advertisement. Hell, it's the best position on the map right now. It ought to be snapped right up. Just don't let Berzerker get it!

	27-11-2001 19:12									#10
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Nobody likes talking to the CSA, they always STAB!

I haven't received any correspondence from Holland since the initial game start, I tried to suade them to stabbing Victor but to no avail.

Since Chazzy is history with his other Holland, maybe he would like to try this Holland, or Berzerker would make an excellent addition.

BUT, there has to be a replacement, too powerful of a country.

	27-11-2001 19:13									#11
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*waves AGAIN*

	27-11-2001 20:40									#12
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Sorry about that El, I missed your first wave (& the evil grin). I take it this means you want to take over the position? If so, email me directly. I check my gte account more often than I do Apolyton.

	27-11-2001 21:36									#13
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The problem is exactly this: I've talked to England, the CSA, and Mexico, and nothing happened. I did this several times. Both Holland and I knew that nothing was going to happen, and we just ended up making sure. This game is not particularly fun at this point, because alliances have crystalized to the point where about the only thing diplomacy can earn me is a turn or two's reprieve from Austrian attacks. While opening up Holland for diplomacy might spark a renewed interest, that's a situation I can only keep the status quo or lose in. Worst case scenario, I get someone stupid who stabs me and ends up taking out about the last thing that can potentially stop the CSA from soloing. This game is basically over at this point anyway.

	27-11-2001 22:14									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Bah... So do we get two TKOs now? First Holland bails out claiming bordorm, and now France?

Victor, I'll agree that you have at least been talking - to me, and to Mexico, and to England. However, your offer sucks. And apparently you make the same offer to England and Mexico. And they must think it sucks too. The problem is exactly *this*: France and Holland are huge imperial powers, with no intention of turning on the other, ever. Additionally they made enemies with England, China, Japan, Russia, Austria, and have managed only to stay nuetral with Turkey. I think the reason that's it's boring is that France and Holland tried (too early) to take on the world. And now it's backfiring. So let's not paint this picture that it's my side stalling the game. We are making progress on our end. No one has presented me with a rational reason to switch sides.

The CSA and Mexico started the game allied with a whopping 7 units between us. I went north, he went south. With all the discussions we've had your only offer to me has been "stab Mexico, and France will attack England." That's just great! Everyone is, and has been attacking England all game. How does this benefit me? I have zippy reason to stab a loyal ally , particularly when he is keeping the monster F/H allinace away from my shores. Add to that the fact that F/H would claim more of his centers than I would, and more importantly control of the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans, and that makes a stab of Mexico fairly foolish for me. But while we're at it I actually pulled out of the boot party and and accepted Orange_1's offer of truce and alliance, forgoing easy builds and found a use for England.

If you want to declare the game a CSA solo, then fine, I'll accept such a concession, but that's not my objective. If you think the games boring then start making realistic offers to other powers.

	27-11-2001 22:28									#15
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Look Victor,
If anyone should be complaining it should be me, my country has been attacked by every sovereign nation within striking distance, including YOU. You thought it was real funny when we had an alliance and then you put one right between my shoulder blades with England. Japan has been a pest from the beginning and won't go away, a credit to him. Turkey is beating the hell out of me in the Western front, for christ sake, CSA is trying to land units in Kam. The only ally I have left is England and I still think this is an extremely interesting game cause there is so much unpredictability left.

I think Hoggy would make an excellent addition cause he is smart and isn't about to do anything stupid. Give him a chance.

	27-11-2001 22:50									#16
	Put an end to popups!

I see everyone preffers a CSA solo. Fine by me, but I see no point in dragging it out then.

"I think the reason that's it's boring is that France and Holland tried (too early) to take on the world."

-Umm... I didn't attack you. I didn't attack Mexico, I didn't attack Austria, etc. The world decided to take us on too early, and in the process overlooked the growing CSA-Mexico block, which is far more stable. I mean, you people can basically steamroll the world while they're too busy trying to shut me down.

I have neither the will nor the time to argue with people about the inevitable. I have about a snowball's chance in hell to convince Defiant to work together to stop you before it's too late.

Don't give me crap, your position is infinitely stronger and you know it.

I will propose and vote for a concession to the CSA.

	27-11-2001 23:00									#17
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The only reason I haven't quit yet is because I actually care about the ADC points penalty for doing so. My leadership is an obvious liability to the French position. Not all the tactical ability in the world can save a country when the world has decided it should no longer exist, and there is no diplomacy left to be done.

	28-11-2001 02:00									#18
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Well, you should all be getting messages about a draw proposal in your email boxes by now. Personally, I don't think the game's gone far enough. Anyway, terms were included with the message. I'm waiting for replies. If the draw proposal fails, I do hope El Awrence will take up the game so we can continue.

	28-11-2001 02:06									#19
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This should help MDR, I am voting "NO" to a seven way draw, this game has lots of life to it, mine could be ending maybe but the game needs to go on in my opinion.

	28-11-2001 04:01									#20
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

The game doesn't really have life to it, and you have a more stable position than I do, anyway, I don't think you should be complaining about your own.

	28-11-2001 06:09									#21
	Remove this text

I'll take over the position if no one minds, just give me a week/week and half to give the map a good look over and do some dipping.

	28-11-2001 06:28									#22
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It's yours. Just waiting to see how this draw proposal goes first...

	28-11-2001 06:37									#23
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Well, Defiant is yelling "No!" all over the place like an old hag, so I'd better take a look at that map.

	28-11-2001 10:05									#24
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Time for my two cents. I vote "NO" to the draw. I find it admirable that Victor won't abandon his position. He and I did talk for some time. He basically employed the "CSA will stab you" scare tactic. I rolled the dice and seem to be okay. No stab. I have even tried to diplomacy with Holland. Yes, he really does exist. That was fruitless. Look, I am on vacation from NOV 30 until DEC 10. I can not do anything anyhow. I suggest that we either have a realistic draw proposal or keep on fighting.

	29-11-2001 20:37									#25
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Of course I never talked to the CSA. What's the point of it? I talked to almost everyone else at one time or another, but Ruffhaus has never been trustworthy, so I saw (and still see) no reason to bother.

	29-11-2001 20:49									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Scott F Of course I never talked to the CSA. What's the point of it? I talked to almost everyone else at one time or another, but Ruffhaus has never been trustworthy, so I saw (and still see) no reason to bother.

So, not only are you beaten, bored, and lazy, but now you are crossgaming as well? As for me not being not being trustworthy, I beg to differ. It all depends on what's in it for me to be trustworthy. Stabs are part of the game. With me they only come against nations that are functioning contrary to my objectives.
Unfortunately for us, our past history is poor, but every game is a new one with me. Now if you openly admit that you won't trust me in this game because I attacked you in Domination and 20th Century Dip, then what other course do I have than to be at odds with you? And I might add that I was completely honest with you in 1600 Dip, even if we were not allies.

	29-11-2001 21:28									#27
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At first Holland had no reason to negotiate with the CSA, as interests did not conflict and there were no shared fronts or borders. Given that I am always short on time, I didn't bother to discuss anything with you. And of course when interests did conflict, even slightly, it was obvious that you were unlikely to listen or make any deal whatsoever, so again there was no point in bothering. I don't have a lot of time to conduct diplomatic discussions with people and since I am frequently online at erratic hours (at least on when I have time to discuss things), it was a matter of priorities. Why waste time with someone that is very unlikely to listen when that time can be better spent in other more important things, be they outside the game or in discussions to coordinate actions with other players?

And of course you can condemn crossgaming and claim that you never do it, but the simple fact is that everyone that I have seen does it to at least some small degree, no matter how much they like to deny it.

Argue it however you like. I don't have time to get into a pointless discussion about how Holland just never talked, when certain people were never willing to listen anyway. It can hardly be called crossgaming when since the start of this game Ruffhaus has stabbed one nation after another (many of which I had good relations and even alliances with as Holland). And has supported certain of his allies (read: inevitable future victims) against other of Holland's general friends. Those alone create a certain perception within a game.

	29-11-2001 21:29									#28
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Let's also not forget that France talked to you every single turn for quite a long time, with the same result from the CSA every single time. Not a lot of hope for discussions generated there either.

	29-11-2001 21:33									#29
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well I don't crossgame.

	29-11-2001 21:36									#30
	Put an end to popups!

*says Defiant as he schemes of how to stab Victor in yet another game*