22-11-2001 20:00									#31
	Re: Re: What about bombardment? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Arkatreides Armies are not screwed up if you go over the 20HP limit. In fact for a while I had elite units with 20HP and I could easily make a 60HP army. It just doesn't show all the HP dots on the screen, but who cares. The problem with 20HP units (a factor of 4 vs the original setup) is that you cannot multiply bomabrd by 4 as the maximum it allows is 10 and some units like bombers have an original value of 3.

Really? That's great; I was afraid that it would. Maybe it messes up the AI, though? Since I changed it in my copy, I am quite sure I've seen two or three AI armies composed of one unit.

	22-11-2001 20:07									#32
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quote: Originally posted by J10 I mean com'on, yesterday I lost two 5hp Elite Calvaries attacking one 1hp Calvary on grassland in a row, and finally had to kill that 1hp Calvary with a 4hp Calvary which wounded up having 1 hp left.

We must be missing something. The chance of losing 14 rounds in a row when the odds are 2-1 in your favour (per round) is infinitesimally small. The manual says sometimes a unit just gets lucky. Maybe this means there is a fixed chance of winning regardless of the odds?

quote: And once again, if underdogs are made easlier to win, then battle tactics are not as important anymore

Now that there aren't so many guarantees, tactics are FAR MORE important.

	22-11-2001 20:29									#33
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The reason why the combat system in CIV is really a crap is that its the same like the old game "empire."
The people at firaxis did not check that the times are changing. Such an old and silly combat system is just not the state of art. They should learn how combat could be resolved from games like Call to Power or Axis and Allies.

BTW I miss already the underwater cities of CTP . Firaxis should introduce them in a patch.

	22-11-2001 20:36									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Bobstah We must be missing something. The chance of losing 14 rounds in a row when the odds are 2-1 in your favour (per round) is infinitesimally small.

The chance of losing 13 rounds in a row in that situation would be about 0.00014%, I think.

	22-11-2001 21:00									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Excelsior The chance of losing 13 rounds in a row in that situation would be about 0.00014%, I think.

It's exactly : 100/2^13, so 100/8192, so 0,0122 %.
Half of that for 14 rounds in a row

	22-11-2001 21:09									#36
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quote: Maybe this means there is a fixed chance of winning regardless of the odds?

Bobstah, that is a very interesting proposition that needs to be given more attention. What if there IS a fixed autowin percentage of 5-10%? That would explain situations where the random number generator appears to be broken and one side, regardless of odds, wins 4-0 or 5-0.

-Sev

	22-11-2001 21:12									#37
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the chance of someone exaggerating on a open forum are, I'd say... 50/1.

Zap

	22-11-2001 21:22									#38
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quote: Originally posted by J10 Personally, I do not like underdogs to win, I do NOT. Reason: Battle tactics are made less useful than it was in Civ2 if you screw it up so that underdogs can win.

I agree - underdogs are fine, but the Civ3 combat system is a deus ex machina...

[quoteI mean com'on, yesterday I lost two 5hp Elite Calvaries attacking one 1hp Calvary on grassland in a row, and finally had to kill that 1hp Calvary with a 4hp Calvary which wounded up having 1 hp left. Someone who's still in college doing probability can tell us the chance of that in Civ2 and in Civ3 so we can all be amazed at how sh|t out of luck I was. [/quote]

The defender only had about a 33% chance every round, the chances of winning 13 combat rounds in a row is nearing 1/infinity... actually it's .000055%, or one chance in 2 million... If he was fortified, I think that's +25% (is that ANYWHERE in the manual?) plus the .10 grassland bonus (when did GRASSLAND get a bonus??), so it may have been .0006%, or one chance in 167000...

quote: I'm pretty sure it's a lot more difficult to happen in Civ2 then in Civ3.

In Civ2 the scenario you describe is a statistical impossibility.

quote: And once again, if underdogs are made easlier to win, then battle tactics are not as important anymore, bad news for us warlike leaders

Some will argue then for micromanaged tactics, 10 to 1 advantages, etc. How dull and tedious...

Venger

	22-11-2001 21:24									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil It's exactly : 100/2^13, so 100/8192, so 0,0122 %. Half of that for 14 rounds in a row

????

A 6 unit attacking a 3 unit gives the defender a 33% chance, so the chances are .33^13, not .5^13.

See my numbers in a post above...

Venger

	22-11-2001 21:25									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil It's exactly : 100/2^13, so 100/8192, so 0,0122 %. Half of that for 14 rounds in a row

No, the odds of winning one round is 3.3 out of 9.3. (The defense gets a 10% bonus on grassland.) Thus it is (3.3/9.3)^13, right? Thus the odds are .00014%, I think.

	22-11-2001 21:25									#41
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quote: Originally posted by zapperio the chance of someone exaggerating on a open forum are, I'd say... 50/1.

He he, that's pretty damn funny!!!

Venger

	22-11-2001 21:47									#42
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quote: The manual says sometimes a unit just gets lucky. Maybe this means there is a fixed chance of winning regardless of the odds?

I still say their pseudo-random number generator is fuxored; it has streaks out the yin-yang.

And I've watched things like four veteran horesemen bounce off of one(!) spearman fortified in a size 6 city, who takes no damage, or three veteran calvary bounce off of a hoplite fortified in a field.

	22-11-2001 22:00									#43
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quote: Originally posted by SuiteSisterMary I still say their pseudo-random number generator is fuxored; it has streaks out the yin-yang.

AMEN MY BROTHER. I will swear on my grave that the random generator is anything but random, it has outliers all OVER the place...

quote: And I've watched things like four veteran horesemen bounce off of one(!) spearman fortified in a size 6 city, who takes no damage, or three veteran calvary bounce off of a hoplite fortified in a field.

Many of us have seen the streakiness of the combat engine. I'm convinced there is something rotten in Denmark...

Venger

	22-11-2001 22:07									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Venger ???? A 6 unit attacking a 3 unit gives the defender a 33% chance, so the chances are .33^13, not .5^13. See my numbers in a post above... Venger

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPS , my bad, I mixed a 2vs1 chance to win the round with a 1/2 chance...


:shame x2:
:shame exponential:
:shame x 5.10^10!:
:error : shame divide by 0:

	22-11-2001 23:02									#45
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A question for the people who tried increasing the hitpoints of units... Doesn';t this mean that you will have to stare at your screen for AGES when you fight? I already detest waiting for two elite units slugging it out...

	22-11-2001 23:08									#46
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re Gnu

I haven't tried increasing hitpoints of units, but there actually is an option to see only "one round" of combat even though it's resolved normally.

	22-11-2001 23:09									#47
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I've noticed streaks also, actually. And what is striking about them is they seem to come in, well ...streaks. When I've noticed an unlikely result it seems to happen, in a streak, to same unit types. Say you are attacking a stack of unit type x and one y, and your first x bounces off a low probability then too often all the other x bounce off too, exactly the same way. switch to y and it breaks the streak. Can someone test this? I don't have the game at my office.

It is simple to test really. The theory is that there is an ordered queue of random seeds saved at the beginning of each turn and that any unit that needs a random seed takes the first one and so forth and so on.

I heard someone suggesting exploiting this by finding the 'good' seeds and save loading and ordering the battle accordingly, ie if the second seed gives a win then do a critical battle second etc. But I never heard of any testing done.

But if the seeds are unit dependent then it will explain what I've been seeing and bring us one step closer to discovering if and how the random seed generator/distributor fouls up.

Zap

	22-11-2001 23:23									#48
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Aren't we completely forgetting rate of fire? I recall reading that ROF is different for different units.

For example, my knight seems to attack three times for every two attacks of an archer. Can anyone verify this?

I also agree that it IS a round based system, and that the numbers rule all. That said, it's hard to be completely clear re: how the defensive/attack modifiers affect things. I mean, we all know the percentage, but are unclear on EXACTLY how it is applied.

I also have to agree with the above post that suggests that results are similar for the same units. Ex: in one turn three elite knights attacked a spearman, and all lost, without hitting once. Then an impi attacked, and won, sustaining no damage. I'm not pissed about it - I know it's just the numbers (and I've had them work in my favor too) but it seemed a bit screwy.

For those complaining, try playing on the higher levels where you're not always the attacker - then you'll be grateful that defenders get a bit of an advantage. (I know I have been).

-Cy

	22-11-2001 23:42									#49
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu A question for the people who tried increasing the hitpoints of units... Doesn';t this mean that you will have to stare at your screen for AGES when you fight? I already detest waiting for two elite units slugging it out...

I thought about that and have done minimal testing - it's longer, but I'm willing to wait for results that don't suck! God forbid an army fight another army!!!

Venger

	22-11-2001 23:45									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Excelsior No, the odds of winning one round is 3.3 out of 9.3. (The defense gets a 10% bonus on grassland.) Thus it is (3.3/9.3)^13, right? Thus the odds are .00014%, I think.

Are you suggesting that I should NOT buy any lotteries like... ever?

Perhaps when you keep winning battles then there's a mechanism to tide the odds against you? I certainly hope not. In the last two rounds I lost three 4hp fortified Riflemen in size 12 cities in a row to 4hp calvaries, and I lost my city.

quote: quote: Originally posted by zapperio the chance of someone exaggerating on a open forum are, I'd say... 50/1. He he, that's pretty damn funny!!!

I'll say. But not that funny when it happened to you. I lost control and started yelling at the screen when I lost my freaking city (see above).

	22-11-2001 23:49									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Cyanydd Aren't we completely forgetting rate of fire? I recall reading that ROF is different for different units. For example, my knight seems to attack three times for every two attacks of an archer. Can anyone verify this?

ROF only seems to be on bombardment units and the cruise missile. Anyone have any idea what it does on standard units? Could be the key to bringing back firepower!

Venger

	22-11-2001 23:51									#52
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quote: In Civ2 the scenario you describe is a statistical impossibility.

Maybe we can just plug the numbers into the new formula.

quote: Some will argue then for micromanaged tactics, 10 to 1 advantages, etc. How dull and tedious...

I'm totally lost...

	23-11-2001 00:23									#53
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quote: Originally posted by J10 Perhaps when you keep winning battles then there's a mechanism to tide the odds against you? I certainly hope not. In the last two rounds I lost three 4hp fortified Riflemen in size 12 cities in a row to 4hp calvaries, and I lost my city.

The odds of that are *insert trumpet fanfare* 0.2%! In other words, 12.6%^3.

Well, the way I see it, there are four possibilities. Either you are exaggerating, you are extremely unlucky, the random number generator is messed up, or we don't understand how the combat system works.

	23-11-2001 00:29									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Venger ROF only seems to be on bombardment units and the cruise missile. Anyone have any idea what it does on standard units? Could be the key to bringing back firepower! Venger

As far as I know, it does nothing for non-bombardment units. I think it is just the number of hitpoints that a bombardment unit can destroy per bombardment. In other words, every time it bombards, it has a number of chances equal to the ROF to take away one hitpoint.

	23-11-2001 00:31									#55
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Does changing HP change the speed in which one gains experience, and does it change how often you could get Great Leaders, or can we change that last bit in the editor ourselves? Also, can we give land units the same ability as warships, since they can both bombard and attack? Think about it, give tanks stand-off power-lets say rate 2 if everyone has HP 10, while arty gets 6. That wouuld mean very realistic combat. Imagine, Civ3 with VERY REALISTIC combat

	23-11-2001 00:41									#56
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Does changing HP change the speed in which one gains experience, and does it change how often you could get Great Leaders, or can we change that last bit in the editor ourselves? Also, can we give land units the same ability as warships, since they can both bombard and attack? Think about it, give tanks stand-off power-lets say rate 2 if everyone has HP 10, while arty gets 6. That wouuld mean very realistic combat. Imagine, Civ3 with VERY REALISTIC combat

Changing HP does not affect either promotions or great leaders as far as I can tell. You can make land units that bombard and move in the same turn, but not bombard and attack. Ships can either bombard or attack in one turn, but not both. Further, attack or bombarding uses one move point.

Edit: Come to think of it, you could make a ground unit attack and bombard in a single turn, but it would have to be a blitz unit like the tank.

	23-11-2001 01:01									#57
	But can this be changed? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

One long question. Is there a way for me to edit a ground unit such that:

I give it 4 movement points, both the ability to bombard and attack (like warships), and that of multiple attacks (like modern armor) such that I could
With move one, move into range, move two, bombard, move three same, move four attack directly. Or does the editor allow only one bombardment per turn of combat regardless of movement points?

	23-11-2001 01:16									#58
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I believe the rule is one bombardment per turn. That's how it is with warships. I don't know how blitz would affect this, though. Hold on, I'll see!

	23-11-2001 01:22									#59
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Bombardment units with blitz can bombard as many times as they have movement points. This does, however, make them insanely powerful.

	23-11-2001 01:38									#60
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Excelsior;
What have we done !

Well, soo enough the discussion about FP/HP should fade away once various people learn how to make unstoppable juggernaughts. My more important question to you again is, warships can't bombardd and move- can your blitz unit do so? Also, coulld we perhaps give rader arty move 2, and thus 2 bombardments even if its no blitz unit?
I guess if all units have 10+ HP and the rate fo fire for such a unit is set a 1 and it has only 3 movement, then all its bomberdment would only do 3 HP at most, not that terrible.