25-11-2001 10:43									#1
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I just opened his last turn.

This is what I found:

a) Production slider maximized
b) Wages slider minimized
c) Rations slider minimized

7 cities disbanded!

It is obvious that he deliberately caused his destruction in a single turn.

Well a player can do what ever he feels like but permanetely replacing another player in a PBEM game on turn 70 and deliberately destroying his civilization after three turns (73) is degradation. I warned him that the civ was in bad condition but he took over. If he had a problem playing it he could resign and find another replacement or change to AI. It just spoils the fun and shows disrespect to the other players.

I personaly condemn such actions

Do we need a new rule? It seems a player took a civ as a sub and self destructed it. Should this be ok or? comments...

	25-11-2001 23:41									#2
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Who did such a thing ? ( Or maybe you don't want to say it ...)

I totally agree wiht you on this subject. Such behavior testifies of the lack of respect this player had for the creator of the game, his adversaries, and all the players who leaded his civ before him.
One civ down makes the games less interesting, less fun for the other players; but i think the fautive couldn't care less of it. This person obviously suffers from a lack of human sensibility or simply education.

I know, i 'm hard, but, mmmm....... i had a bad day

	26-11-2001 09:27									#3
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You too

I agree chit happens but if done deliberatly It should constitute a fine of some sort? Like automatic loss to all players in game x2.

	26-11-2001 13:00									#4
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Im not going to hold it against him.

I have done this countless times. on MP when **** goes sour.....

I also did this in Monkey 2 as Don was about to enter Paris

	26-11-2001 13:32									#5
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There is a less brutal way.

If a civ is too poor, then if nobody wanna play it, the moderator should put it in AI mode.

AI mode is a dump foe, but could be average for defense.

	27-11-2001 14:12									#6
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Im not going to hold it against him. I have done this countless times. on MP when **** goes sour..... I also did this in Monkey 2 as Don was about to enter Paris

The issue here is that a civ was taken for only three turns with all of its cities untouched

	27-11-2001 15:19									#7
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We should understand his act. The guy was afraid by me. He prefered to suicid his civ him-self rather than gave it to another guy who would have suffered from my wrath...

It was an genereous act, in fact

	27-11-2001 16:42									#8
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quote: Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior We should understand his act. The guy was afraid by me. He prefered to suicid his civ him-self rather than gave it to another guy who would have suffered from my wrath... It was an genereous act, in fact

I have the feeling that you haven't fully comprehended of what I am talking about. The issue is that he took over a civ as permanent replacement, he played it for three turns and then he commited a suicide without notifing anyone because someone killed a couple of troops of his. Nobody is talking about a regular player who lost half of his cities and he is in a hopeless situation. That is perfectly understandable though I get off my hat to those who fight to the end.

The most natural and appropriate action if you feel like quiting for any reason three turns after permanetaly replacing another player is to inform the moderator or anyone to find another replacement or switch to AI.

I characterize such actions as antisocial, egotistical and malice

Besides despite the fact that the civ was in a bad situation it was not hopeless at all and had some chances for survival. With the right diplomacy he could obtain foreign support and force the attacker to sign up a peace treaty.

Note: My above characterizations are refering to the action itself and not to the person who carried it on. I personaly cannot judge a person from a single action.

	27-11-2001 18:18									#9
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Hey put your gun down Keygen !
Aaargh... I wasn't serious !


Of course, I'm agree with you. He should have talk us about the fact that he wasn't any more interested by playing this game.
I had the same problem in the game "Happy Killers". It was worst,
because in this kind of game, the destruction of the first civ ends the game.

Personnaly, I haven't so much hope in this game too. But I won't
suicide my civ. I will act maybe like a Kamikaze against one civ, in order to make the price of my destruction higher as possible.
Or I will ask to put my civ in AI mode, if the civ is definitivly no more interresting.

I think as Black Ice that the offender must suffer from a Penalty in the rating system.

	27-11-2001 19:09									#10
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quote: Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior Hey put your gun down Keygen ! Aaargh... I wasn't serious !

I wasn't holding a gun. Perhaps just a small knife
No seriously, I just wanted to clear up my opinion so there is no misunderstanding...

quote: Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior I think as Black Ice that the offender must suffer from a Penalty in the rating system.

I don't think we should penaltize any action at all. This is a playground not a state prison (no offence Ice just joking around). We could just include things like that in the PBEM Rules.

	27-11-2001 19:10									#11
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Nobody is talking about a regular player who lost half of his cities and he is in a hopeless situation. That is perfectly understandable though I get off my hat to those who fight to the end.

I took over lung 1.2 with what 5 cities the civ was dead really. I am out of it now I think as Lung wiped it out. But the point is AI is a joke I offer to play it out So they could enjoy the game. To be honest it was one of the most fun games I have played.

Dipolmacy he was allies with at least me I know that I am sure we could have drummed up more support. Or at least put a halt to the war with pressure. I thought his civ was better than mine, nice river some mountains etc.

Anyway yes Zobo we should have a rule for this for sure.

	27-11-2001 20:24									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Keygen I don't think we should penaltize any action at all. This is a playground not a state prison (no offence Ice just joking around). We could just include things like that in the PBEM Rules.

I didn't realize Ice was in prison.

	27-11-2001 22:18									#13
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Hahahaha I missed that No state prisons in Canada nor am I in one

I would agree but to have a rule is nice but if it continues because rules are meant to be broken then what? If two or three people decide to do this the game is ruined for the rest. I would say yes a penalty would make one think twice and do the right thing.

	28-11-2001 00:29									#14
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WELL BOYS (AND GIRL(S(though only a few))).

I say you should always fight until the end. Annihilate any nation because you know your are loosing is...............

I also say, every player playing in rated games should be obliged to stay rated there - or keep his/her nose away from that game.

Why can I say that? Because I myself do what I say! If I am not rated in a game, that must be either a mistake or because the game isn't rated at all - that is with a few exceptions - exceptions all players agrees to (I hope).

My opinion is: If you are a rated gamer, then you SHALL be rated in every rated games you are in. That's the only way to get a clear "sign" of you skill.

Yes, starting positions and take overs might be a loosers positions.

BUT I NO NOT THINK THAT SHOULD BE AN EXCUSE! THAT'S LIFE!!!!!!!

	28-11-2001 01:40									#15
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Kool Birdy

Do you think there should be a penalty for such actions?

	28-11-2001 02:36									#16
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Let me explain my postion on this situation. Keygen, when I started playing PBEM, I asked for 3-4 games. That what I started recieving and told you thanks that was enough. Then I start recieving turns for 2-3 other games including High Voltage. None of which I wanted, so I made a mistake to elminate one of them. I realize now that I should have spoke to the game moderator instead of destroying that civ, and for that I apologize.

	28-11-2001 03:49									#17
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You the man Nimrod Np but it does bring up the unknown does'nt it?

What is your position on this should it be a rule, penalty?

I hope you realize we have all made an effort to keep names out of it as that is only fair and not the issue really. The issue is the action and the consequences not the person(s) who do it

	28-11-2001 04:23									#18
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Blackice is in Prison

What did you do? Try steal a TV or somthing? Dropped it on a cops foot? Now your in the slammer for awhile?


Keygen must know somthing.....

quote: I don't think we should penaltize any action at all. This is a playground not a state prison (no offence Ice just joking around). We could just include things like that in the PBEM Rules.

aye dont worry. Even if you were.....we still love u petey!!

	28-11-2001 04:25									#19
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Found BI new email address.....

CellblockD@Ca.loonies.com

	28-11-2001 08:10									#21
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When I did what I did, I felt as though I had 2 opinions:
Go to war with nearest neighbors
or
Cause a major revolution with in the civ

Either would have produced the same results, just one was faster. Make a rule with a penalty or not, I have no opinion. But I will say this, seems to be the first occurrence of anything like it happening. Do you think a rule is necessary?

	28-11-2001 09:57									#22
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory aye dont worry. Even if you were.....we still love u petey!!

Oops .......of course not like the other prisoners...no really . Honest

	28-11-2001 11:34									#23
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quote: Do you think a rule is necessary?

Well I think IMHO it is best to have clear and concise rules, fair rules we can all read.

	28-11-2001 14:12									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Nimrod When I did what I did, I felt as though I had 2 opinions: Go to war with nearest neighbors or Cause a major revolution with in the civ Either would have produced the same results, just one was faster. Make a rule with a penalty or not, I have no opinion. But I will say this, seems to be the first occurrence of anything like it happening. Do you think a rule is necessary?

I was your nearest neighbour and ally you planned to (not so) sneak attack . And I'm as weak as you were (I accepted to take a civ who was the second last in the powergraph ).

We could a a common plan in order to make us stronger... Diplomaty could sometime very usefull for tiny nations.



Whatever, it will take some time, but one day I will Rule the WORLD!

	28-11-2001 15:45									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Nimrod Let me explain my postion on this situation. Keygen, when I started playing PBEM, I asked for 3-4 games. That what I started recieving and told you thanks that was enough. Then I start recieving turns for 2-3 other games including High Voltage. None of which I wanted, so I made a mistake to elminate one of them. I realize now that I should have spoke to the game moderator instead of destroying that civ, and for that I apologize.

OK Nimrod, thanks for explaining yourself

Who granted you a position to a game without asking you first He must have been very despaired

BTW, I had posted a free vacancy in YRC for High Voltage (page 10) and you had accepted to take over. I had even sent you an email informing you that the civ was in bad situation if I remember correctly...

	28-11-2001 15:51									#26
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quote: Originally posted by blackice Well I think IMHO it is best to have clear and concise rules, fair rules we can all read.

Rules that uses common sense