26-11-2001 07:04									#31
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I don't want to waste any words.


INFOGRAMES!!!




Nevs23 (Zarathustra)

	26-11-2001 07:11									#32
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This only makes me even more happy I didn't buy Civ3. It's a rookie effort backed by a P.O.S. publisher. End of story. The *only* thing going for Civ3 is the fans who will nourish it into something worth playing. If this is the corporate message, screw 'em.

I'm now playing Space Empires 4 and having a much better time than I ever did with Civ3. Well, off to play a real game by a group of people who actually pulled their heads out.

	26-11-2001 07:43									#33
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 This only makes me even more happy I didn't buy Civ3. It's a rookie effort backed by a P.O.S. publisher. End of story. The *only* thing going for Civ3 is the fans who will nourish it into something worth playing. If this is the corporate message, screw 'em. I'm now playing Space Empires 4 and having a much better time than I ever did with Civ3. Well, off to play a real game by a group of people who actually pulled their heads out.

Yin,

1. Why is the "fan treatment" so important to you. Why not just pay for what you like?

2. I thought you said you would buy it after playing it when that store owner lent it to you.

	26-11-2001 07:56									#34
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I'd say when a game is already in pretty tip-top shape, I don't much care about how the fans interact with the developer / publisher. I mean, the game is good already, right?

In the case of Civ3, however, I don't feel the game is good, in part because a clearly unfinished product was put on the shelves. This means that indications of how fans are treated likely serve as signs regarding how well the patches and expansions will be handled.

At this point, the message is clear: "Dear Fans: Please bend over as we think we can squeeze a few more pints from your backside."

So, fan treatment tells me a lot about the future of this incomplete game. This is also why I took the game back to my computer guy and rather reluctantly said: 'Thanks but no thanks.' However, I promptly bought a local game I had been meaning to play, so no harm no foul.

However, I do not mean to waste people's time here with my rantings, and I only stopped by this particular thread because I found Infogrames' attitude to be appallingly disgusting and in line with what I had predicted would be Civ3's future.

I warn you now, Civ3 if it stays this course will NEVER reach the longevity we saw with Civ2. Never.

	26-11-2001 08:31									#35
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GP

quote: I agree that they should have sent a letter or called instead of going to a lawyer first. I really doubt that this guy will have to pay the $500. That is just Infogrames trying to be heavyhanded. The guy should just write back and say that he will shut the project down if Infogrames stops the lawyer. After that he should just shut the project down and ignore any lawyer threats. Noones going to come after him for $500. And they don't have a case.

you forget this is germany and their legal system is different from the one in the us

check out this story about something called Abmahnung, which means that pretty much any lawfirm in germany can write a cease and disist letter on infogrames "behalf" and expect payment, while this doesn't seem to apply in this case if infogrames want to be asses of themselves then they could get the 500 dollars i'm sure

but what happened to customer service? piss off the fans when you released a perfect game, and it can hurt sells, piss off the fans when you released a good, but unfortunantly unfinished game and it can kill sells...it just seems that the best way to gain loyal customers is to practice good pr/customer service

and without some big improvements in the patch for the scenario editor i think that yin is right about civ3's long term outlook

	26-11-2001 08:32									#36
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 However, I do not mean to waste people's time here with my rantings...

Well, you certainly do.

	26-11-2001 08:56									#37
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Unlike your troll, I suppose? How many threads have I started in the last two weeks? Pull *your* head out, please.

	26-11-2001 09:00									#38
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 I'm now playing Space Empires 4 and having a much better time than I ever did with Civ3.

I also have that one.

But i stopped playing some months ago. Lack of time and also a bit dissapointed with the AI and some other stuff. But i hanged around shrapnel forun and i know how productive malfador with patchs and fans with mods and AI scripts are worth. I supoose there must been tons of patchs since 8 or 9 months ago.

So my question is:

Is SE4 really a challenge as single player now? Any advice in mods to aplly to it after patching?

Tks.

	26-11-2001 09:05									#39
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Well, I'll answer the SE4 question to show what a community can do when a *real* company releases a product:

There have been over the last 8 to 9 months some simply amazing leaps made by fans in shipsets and AI. I only know this because I researched the forums there and was just floored by all the cool stuff. Patch 1.46 also is out.

SE4 was, simply put, DESIGNED to be modded, and the fans have just taken the ball and run with it! Also, the designer's seemed very attententive to the fans' input for patches. As a result, the forum there is full of a lot of positive, productive threads.

As for how much the SP AI has improved, I'm not a good person to ask since I am just learning the game. But I often see the vets over there referring to this and that mod as having 'tough AI' etc.

	26-11-2001 09:31									#40
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I don't know what the relation between firaxis/infogrames is, but id find it highly amusing if they dumped them for their next title ;P Its not like they couldn't get just about any publisher they want, assuming they are the ones who hold all the copyrights and infogrames doesn't own all their stock Course business isnt my speciality, so I could bt totally off on how those things work. It does clearly seem to be a case of a good developer, really lousy publisher though.

As for SE4, its good, my problem with it though was always that stellar manipulation (especially opening/closing wormholes) seemed to blow the ai's mind. You could close all of its wormholes off and it'd just sit there until you reopened them later to attack I havent played the newer versions though or any mods. Ill agree its the most moddable game out there though by far

	26-11-2001 09:34									#41
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I always feel that the company a developer chooses to publish the game says an awful lot about the developer. By the way, thanks for heads up about the wormhole thing. Don't know if that has been fixed, but I certainly won't use that tactic if the AI can't cope with it.

	26-11-2001 09:41									#42
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Thanks for the feedback Yin26 and wervdon.

Patch 1.46!!! WOW. Last time i was there it was on patch 1.1x (can't remenber last number).

	26-11-2001 09:44									#43
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yin26

malfador isn't exactly a real company
but i understand what you are trying to say, but they have a good deal of creative control over their game and they certainly aren't out to get rich off of it, while we certainly know that infogrames is trying to make a buck (a quick one at that) off of it

now what i wonder is this
put yourself in infogrames position

you have just bought a smaller company with a very profittable franchise...then you manage to sign a deal with the people behind the game...then their independent company seems to be having major troubles, one of their best and brightest leaves with a bunch of other key people, and the entire development process goes to hell

christmas rolls around, you can either release the game now in an unfinished but workable state, or miss the holiday season and spend an extra four to six months in development of a game that is already over budget and late...what do u do? take the quick buck or ensure the game protects the long term prospects of the franchise

also for civ4 who do u think firaxis will contract to make the game? will it go back to sid and firaxis or will it go with another company?

	26-11-2001 10:03									#44
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Yes, I think the 'company' aspect needs to die in favor of more direct sales via on-line transactions. Cut out these publisher hacks and we might really see 'the good old days' of game making come back better than ever. I think Firaxis sees just a few dollars on each game sold. Imagine them being able to sell it for even $10/20 dollars direct. My God, everybody with a fast enough Internet connection (or willing to pay a little S&H) would get an awesome game at a rock-bottom price and Firaxis would make a whole lot more money *and* have complete control over release/patch schedules. As more and more people get faster Net connections, I honestly believe this will be the future of gaming.

As for what I would have done as Infogrames:

I would have tried for both -- Christmas sales AND a solid product, since that is clearly the best thing for the short and the long term success of all people involved. For all I know, they tried that with Firaxis and the answer was either A) 'We can do it by x-mas, no worries' or B) 'We'll have some problems with that but can release something that's at least playable.'

A) I suppose if they took Firaxis' word and found out only too late that the game was still a few months short, I'd gather up an independent test group and see just how 'unfinished' they feel it is. If really bad, I'd make the decision to delay the game 'in the name of quality' knowing full well that a game like Civ3 does NOT need Christmas to help it sell. In fact, a good number of the best selling games in history were NOT released at x-mas.

B) This is where the brass balls come in. Firaxis tells you that basically only an unfinished product will make the deadline. At this point, you have to push and prod and 'lead' Firaxis toward making a solid product. Of course, publishers maybe have no pull in that regard. All they can say is: 'You signed the contract. Better have the Gold Master to us by October.'

Bottom line is that a successful Civ3 would make both companies a lot of money and a lot of fans very happy. In my opinion, releasing the game 4 months too early may well have jeopardized the long-term money-making ability of this product as the negative word has indeed spread. And remember: The trickles of sales coming in during the Spring at $30 each could have been easily overcome by a flood of sustained sales from Spring at $50 each.

My suspicion is that Infogrames wanted to boost their quarterly and year-end profile. I think they said: 'Well, long-term sales or no, we'll make our money NOW. Hell, we've got plenty of games going and don't really need Civ3 to be a huge success anyway. Let's make the x-mas window and 2001 financials and hope for a nice surprise next year if Firaxis manages to actually code the complete game ... for the x-pack.'

Well, in my mind, this whole thing greatly reduces Firaxis' image as a competent company. Yes, they'll make their money, but I simply refuse to buy a Sid afterthought. If and when Sid really gets excited about something other than golf, I'll play close attention. But this rookie crew releasing Civ3 has done nothing to help the company, IMO.

	26-11-2001 10:06									#45
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By the way, Korn, have you played SE4?

	26-11-2001 10:18									#46
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 I'd say when a game is already in pretty tip-top shape, I don't much care about how the fans interact with the developer / publisher. I mean, the game is good already, right? In the case of Civ3, however, I don't feel the game is good, in part because a clearly unfinished product was put on the shelves. This means that indications of how fans are treated likely serve as signs regarding how well the patches and expansions will be handled.

I think that the key issue for Infogrames/Firaxis is the game quality. I predict the market will react like you...only more strictly. Good game means they can do whatever they want. Bad game...they're screwed no matter how much clattering they do about patches.

And I think that CTP2 showed us that they will only patch a game if:

1. The game is not a complete dog in sales (and thus better written off).
2. Patches are needed to keep sales up. (i.e. there are some things that really need patching and are being commented on in reviews.)

Based on this: I think you'll see patches. Civ3 has been less of a complete smash than desired...but it is still a strong title.


To the extent that the game wasn't a complete hit, I blame Firaxis...not Infogrames. Firaxis screwed the pooch by losing half the team in the middle of the project.

	26-11-2001 10:20									#47
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Agreed. Civ3 is 'just good enough' to give it a second shot in the months to come. I hope it does well, honestly, but it will really have to earn my faith over the next few months.

	26-11-2001 10:33									#48
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Yes, I think the 'company' aspect needs to die in favor of more direct sales via on-line transactions. Cut out these publisher hacks and we might really see 'the good old days' of game making come back better than ever. I think Firaxis sees just a few dollars on each game sold. Imagine them being able to sell it for even $10/20 dollars direct. My God, everybody with a fast enough Internet connection (or willing to pay a little S&H) would get an awesome game at a rock-bottom price and Firaxis would make a whole lot more money *and* have complete control over release/patch schedules. As more and more people get faster Net connections, I honestly believe this will be the future of gaming. As for what I would have done as Infogrames: I would have tried for both -- Christmas sales AND a solid product, since that is clearly the best thing for the short and the long term success of all people involved. For all I know, they tried that with Firaxis and the answer was either A) 'We can do it by x-mas, no worries' or B) 'We'll have some problems with that but can release something that's at least playable.' A) I suppose if they took Firaxis' word and found out only too late that the game was still a few months short, I'd gather up an independent test group and see just how 'unfinished' they feel it is. If really bad, I'd make the decision to delay the game 'in the name of quality' knowing full well that a game like Civ3 does NOT need Christmas to help it sell. In fact, a good number of the best selling games in history were NOT released at x-mas. B) This is where the brass balls come in. Firaxis tells you that basically only an unfinished product will make the deadline. At this point, you have to push and prod and 'lead' Firaxis toward making a solid product. Of course, publishers maybe have no pull in that regard. All they can say is: 'You signed the contract. Better have the Gold Master to us by October.' My suspicion is that Infogrames wanted to boost their quarterly and year-end profile. I think they said: 'Well, long-term sales or no, we'll make our money NOW. Hell, we've got plenty of games going and don't really need Civ3 to be a huge success anyway. Let's make the x-mas window and 2001 financials and hope for a nice surprise next year if Firaxis manages to actually code the complete game ... for the x-pack.'

Yin, direct sales are attractive to all product originators: writers, recorders, game designers, car makers, toilet makers...OK specialty toilet makers! Howver lots of good data shows that people prefer to buy in stores and that in some sense it is "easier" and "better" to buy thorugh the store channel than the UPS delivery channel. As long as this remains th case, direct sales will lag. And publishers will remain.

Xmas is a big deal...it really is.

End of year financials may have little bit extra importance this year...with the harsh state of the software stock market...so I can understand Infogrames sticking to an Oct. Launch.

If the game isn't finished, the main culprit is the Brian Reynolds/Sid split. Firaxis is culpable for that...not Infogrames.

	26-11-2001 10:36									#49
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People prefer the store bought thing because that's still the standard ... and so is all the crap that publishers bring to the table. But in Korea, for example, (the world's leading user of broadband Internet in family homes), shopping on-line is rapidly becoming the preferred method.

As it will in the States in a generation or two, at least for software. Of course, we are not there yet, though a few independents use this method quite nicely to make decent money. Football Manager or some such title is a good example.

This will happen because it is good for the developer and the consumer. The publishers need to die like dinosaurs.

	26-11-2001 10:40									#50
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Ah, I should also mention: Many many more people are buying their games from places like Chips and Bits. How much happier would you be if you could simply download the game THEN AND THERE instead of doing all the waiting (and paying extra while you're at it).

Once more and more people have 1MB / sec downloading ability, publishers will start to die a gruesome death. I can't wait!

	26-11-2001 10:57									#51
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quote: I think that the key issue for Infogrames/Firaxis is the game quality. I predict the market will react like you...only more strenly. Good game means they can do whatever they want. Bad game...they're screwed no matter how much clattering they do about patches. And I think that CTP2 showed us that they will only patch a game if: 1. The game is not a complete dog in sales (and thus better written off). 2. Patches are needed to keep sales up. (i.e. there are some things that really need patching and are being commented on in reviews.) Based on this: I think you'll see patches. Civ3 has been less of a complete smash than desired...but it is still a strong title. To the extent that the game wasn't a complete hit, I blame Firaxis...not Infogrames. Firaxis screwed the pooch by losing half the time in the middle of the project.

i agree with everything you said

basically civ3 is a ok to good game, however it is certainly unfinished, and although firaxis wasted about 7 months of development time, they came through with a fairly solid game that included only the essentials...wonder movies would have been a very nice addition, but they were not implemented...most likely because of the time and money that civ3 had already wasted

infogrames had some patience, and civ3 delivered on solid gameplay, without any of the bells and whistles, and without some thing we have come to take for granted...so civ3 was good enough not to be DOA, but over the long term it won't win over that many new fans

warcraft 3 has to be overbudget, and it is "late" but i can almost guarantee that blizzard will include every single little bell and whistle you can imagine, and that it will be an AAA title

civ3 was rushed, and i think it has alot of sloppiness but almost all of those problems can be fixed in patch

civ3 has no glaring unfixable flaws, and i just hope that firaxis and infogrames fixes the flaws in civ3 (lack of mp, scenario editor, bug fixes, a few balance changes) if not then civ3 will wither on the vine

yin

quote: Yes, I think the 'company' aspect needs to die in favor of more direct sales via on-line transactions. Cut out these publisher hacks and we might really see 'the good old days' of game making come back better than ever. I think Firaxis sees just a few dollars on each game sold. Imagine them being able to sell it for even $10/20 dollars direct. My God, everybody with a fast enough Internet connection (or willing to pay a little S&H) would get an awesome game at a rock-bottom price and Firaxis would make a whole lot more money *and* have complete control over release/patch schedules. As more and more people get faster Net connections, I honestly believe this will be the future of gaming.

only problem with this is that even when the faster internet connections get here (1gb per second lets say) publishers will control so much of the intellectual property that they will find a way to continue to screw developers...but i would love to see developers get the control and push the publishers to the background, its sad that the nuts and bolts of the industry has so much power

quote: My suspicion is that Infogrames wanted to boost their quarterly and year-end profile. I think they said: 'Well, long-term sales or no, we'll make our money NOW. Hell, we've got plenty of games going and don't really need Civ3 to be a huge success anyway. Let's make the x-mas window and 2001 financials and hope for a nice surprise next year if Firaxis manages to actually code the complete game ... for the x-pack.

my thoughts exactly

i think infogrames blew it on brand management...its better to release a strong but late game in a successful franchise than risk the entire thing over boosting quarterly earnings

	26-11-2001 11:16									#52
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Well, what is funny is, that the US version sells in Germany. It's not like we had to import the game through suspicious channels like contraband. It sells off the shelves, with a sticker "Original US-version" and is not more or less expensive than "official" German releases.

Still, I am surprised how long the translation will take. (Considering the pooer translation of Civ2, I hope they'll do a better job.)

And yes, it seems that Civ3 is not made to mod, like Space Empires, or Combat Mission, or even Half-Life, games that rely heavily on dedicated fans to push the limits of the games further and further.

Let's hope that Infogrames becomes a bit more liberal and less mock-protective of Firaxis' brainchild. Becaus, let's face it: They have the copyrughts, and it's within their good rights to decide who can make which modifications to the game.

	26-11-2001 11:47									#53
	Increase Your PM Length

Infogrames.de press release on the translation project:

(translated from the German)

"With an injunction Infogrames has halted a translation of Civilization III by a fan group. The grounds for this action are, among other things, the infringement of the copyrights that belong to Firaxis and Sid Meier. On this point, Frank Holz, Marketing Director of Infogrames: 'All content of computer games is subject to copyright. Infogrames at this time has no choice but to formally stop the translation project. In this regard we are obligated to Firaxis, and this also applies from a legal standpoint. Of course, however, we are stunned by the commitment with which this group of fans approached this translation. Because we want to support fan projects more in the future than before, we are now checking out in discussions with Firaxis what possibilities for cooperation in this regard exist. Yet it must be kept in mind that the German localization by Infogrames is already well apace and deals with the entire game, while the fan group, as clearly stated by project leader Kai Fiebach, is only translating parts of it'"

Last edited by Gaius Marius on 26-11-2001 at 12:39

	26-11-2001 12:04									#54
	Got spare money?

Sure sounds like a typical German corporate weasel.

	26-11-2001 12:05									#55
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I haven't yet given my support to these German efforts, so...

Well done! Keep going and don't let IG beat you!

They already cheated us with the LE, but that's enough, they won't do that twice.

	26-11-2001 12:10									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Gaius Marius Because we want to support fan prohects more in the future than before, we are now checking out in discussions with Firaxis what possibilities for cooperation in this regard exist.

Just wondering how deep those discussions have been...
For me this looks more like a joke. But what are those "possibilities for co-operation"? An another way to say that "those fans can go to hell"?

	26-11-2001 12:13									#57
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SIMPLY TASTELESS!!!!!!

I cannot believe these lines even as I read them! What an attrocious thing to do to a grassroots group of fellows! So this is the thanks we get... unthinkable!

quote: Of course, however, we are stunned by the commitment with which this group of fans approached this translation.

Why? People love the Civ series and have been playing/editing with the files of games for years. Some of the scenario community spend hundreds of hours modifying their files for free distribution to others. Glad to see your appriciation of their commitment. How much would it have cost them if they weren't so commited?

quote: Because we want to support fan projects more in the future than before, we are now checking out in discussions with Firaxis what possibilities for cooperation in this regard exist.

Gee, thanks but no thanks, arseholes! What other 'cooperation' do you have in mind? Perhaps a $1,000 fine instead. Very cooperative indeed! I bend over, you bumrush me....terrific!

This treatment of our fellow civers has truly enraged me at this point. I bought civ3 for $60, the LE, on the first day of availability. I have since put it down cause it is such a crap product! I swear, I got more use out of the friggin $9.95 Beachead2000 game than I have got for Civ3. This is the icing on the cake. Words cannot express my distain at this time!

Gee thanks Sid. I love watching you play your piano with your family on that awesome special edition disk, really friggin' heartwarming. Especially when I consider the goons you guys hire to go breaking up an honest effort by some to help your lousy stinking product!

Dont give me explanations. This goes above and beyond any legal bulls**it. This is bloody amoral and you know it!

I am glad to see some people willing to defend this action. You guys are just as sickening. I will submit this post now before I write something I will regret. Thanks again Infogrames... for nothing.

-FMK.


edit: spelling errors due to the fact that I am so pissed off right now.

	26-11-2001 12:22									#58
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FMK:

	26-11-2001 12:31									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Gaius Marius Infogrames.de press release on the translation project: (translated from the German) "With an injunction Infogrames has halted a translation of Civilization III by a fan group. The grounds for this action are, among other things, the infringement of the copyrights that belong to Firaxis and Sid Meier. On this point, Frank Holz, Marketing Director of Infogrames: 'All content of computer games is subject to copyright. Infogrames at this time has no choice but to formally stop the translation project. In this regard we are obligated to Firaxis, and this also applies from a legal standpoint. Of course, however, we are stunned by the commitment with which this group of fans approached this translation. Because we want to support fan prohects more in the future than before, we are now checking out in discussions with Firaxis what possibilities for cooperation in this regard exist. Yet it must be kept in mind that the German localization by Infogrames is already well apace and deals with the entire game, while the fan group, as clearly stated by project leader Kai Fiebach, is only translating parts of it'"

Firstly this sounds like some hasty backpedalling (carefully phrased) to save face and appease a fan base affected in a negative way by any possible corporate suit or action against the participants. Secondly it is simply a justification for their action (forbidden under copyright). No reason (ie: loss of revenue due to lost sales) is given whatsoever - probably because no reason, palatable to the public anyway, exists.
If their own translation is already "well apace" and is still going to take several months to finish its a pretty abyssymal effort (lowest-cost bidder? ) especially if bested by fans working part-time for no financial return.
In any case I can't imagine there would be many fans affected in any way whatsoever by allowing the unofficial translation.
Those using it would surely be those who bought the English version and were capable of using it but preferred it in their own language, not those whose lack of understanding of English would completely nullify their ability to use it.
(Would you buy something in another language knowing you'd be completely unable to use it without the aide of an unofficial and unaccountable translation downloaded from somewhere on the net?).

	26-11-2001 12:33									#60
	Tired of ads?

Nothing good can possibly come of this bullying the fans. IG is so friggen behind the curve when it comes to the modding community is it truly wretched to see this happen. God, I hope that the sales in Germany just drop through the floor because of this. In fact, I hope IG's stocks take a huge hit in 2002 as well.

Cocky know-nothing bastards. I would sleep better at night picturing out of work IG suits looking for jobs in the newspaper but not finding any ... and as they go to try to mod their favorite computer games in the meantime, the Hit Squad comes in a blows holes in their computer.