26-11-2001 12:34									#61
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

FMK

Well said. Everything.

	26-11-2001 12:41									#62
	Support Apolyton

This is ridiculous. It has become abundantly clear that Infogrames is not customer-service oriented. I understand that they are a business and that tech companies are facing some difficulties, but it won't endear the civ community to do this kind of B.S. I still have not bought Civ 3, though I was inching towards asking for it for Christmas. Now, however, I have decided categorically that I will not support a company that treats consumers so poorly. It's one thing to look out for your bottom line...it's another to punch your fans and customers in the face. As I understand it, these guys were willing to lend a hand to the localization efforts in the hopes that they could get the German release to come out sooner. Now, if I'm not mistaken, that would mean free labor AND a quicker release of the localized version. To argue that the financial impact of allowing the English version to be translated would be too great is ridiculous. It was Infogrames's stupid decision to force the English version early. What did they expect? Germans celebrate Christmas too! Considering the sucess of Civ 2 and Alpha Centauri, Infogrames is truly idiodic in doing this. Why is it that I don't get sent a $500 fine for making my "Spanish-American War Scenario" for Civ 2? When "Conflicts in Civilization" came out, they included a whole pack of scenarios designed by fans. Modifying and distributing text files for the sake of a scenario should not be treated any differently than modifying them for a translation. I am sad to say that I think that Infogrames has destroyed the Civilization legacy referred to on the Civ 3 website.

	26-11-2001 12:43									#63
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

They can't stop the work...

All the dude needs do is release his mod via a friend or internet cafe and then keep quiet.

They couldn't possibly prove that someone else didn't just follow the same procedure as he and his team did.



Funny how Dan from firaxis will wash his hands of this one or just plain avoid it...I think civ3 is great and will get better with modding, but this is almost in spite of firaxis and infogram.

	26-11-2001 12:54									#64
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by GP They make more money by selling seperate language versions. It enables price discrimination. (For instance if DE civers can be charged more than Americans.)

Okay, I understand that they want to sell localized versions, or their translation wouldn't profit, but if someone translated the game to a language that it wouldn't be translated to in other case. Shouldn't that boost the sales of the English version?

	26-11-2001 12:58									#65
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by kittenOFchaos Funny how Dan from firaxis will wash his hands of this one or just plain avoid it...I think civ3 is great and will get better with modding, but this is almost in spite of firaxis and infogram.

I don't think this had much to do with Firaxis. They get their money whether they sell American language versions now (which are translated by fans or not) or German language versions later...

	26-11-2001 12:59									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by MarkG there are absolutely no problems with maps, scenarios or mods

You may not modify...
Changing the graphics is what I call modifying.

And what does "create derivative work from" mean? My English isn't good enough to understand the meaning of that part. I can understand the words, but I can't tell what the words tell me not to do.

	26-11-2001 13:03									#67
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Gramphos Okay, I understand that they want to sell localized versions, or their translation wouldn't profit, but if someone translated the game to a language that it wouldn't be translated to in other case. Shouldn't that boost the sales of the English version?

In that case...it would help them...

	26-11-2001 13:11									#68
	Suits don't play games...Yin Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by yin26 Nothing good can possibly come of this bullying the fans. IG is so friggen behind the curve when it comes to the modding community is it truly wretched to see this happen. God, I hope that the sales in Germany just drop through the floor because of this. In fact, I hope IG's stocks take a huge hit in 2002 as well. Cocky know-nothing bastards. I would sleep better at night picturing out of work IG suits looking for jobs in the newspaper but not finding any ... and as they go to try to mod their favorite computer games in the meantime, the Hit Squad comes in a blows holes in their computer.

The suits are, like me, non-players who talk about game marketing. (But not as well as I do... )

	26-11-2001 13:15									#69
	Got spare money?

GP: I know, that was my (too hidden, I guess) jab at them.

	26-11-2001 13:17									#70
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Gramphos You may not modify... Changing the graphics is what I call modifying.

hhm, well, when you bring me a complaint from firaxis about mods with graphics, we can talk about it again

	26-11-2001 13:19									#71
	Increase Your PM Length

Just don't change any graphics that make up words, though, 'cause then your butt will be in prison, mister!

	26-11-2001 13:22									#72
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by MarkG hhm, well, when you bring me a complaint from firaxis about mods with graphics, we can talk about it again

I know that Firaxis is positive towards moding and changing graphics, but it is Infogames that has written the license. I have seen posts by Dan confirming that the changes and enhancements are good. (And you may not enhance)

	26-11-2001 13:45									#73
	Increase Your PM Length

Gramphos

quote: And what does "create derivative work from" mean? My English isn't good enough to understand the meaning of that part. I can understand the words, but I can't tell what the words tell me not to do.

derivative is a mathematical term from calculus

in this case corporate calculus! it means they will smack you with a lawsuit when you makes changes they don't approve of

but a deriviative work means what you made was based on the engine that you adapted for your own purposes...like if you managed to mod the civ3 engine into a hack and slash game but you said it was your game and not a civ3 mod, technically freeciv, and the civ evo projects are "derivative works"

as far as your copy tool and save game editor goes, i don't think it applies to them, i think it would have to be something that actually was centered around a large portion of the civ3 code

	26-11-2001 13:59									#74
	Suffering from ads?

Infogrames and Firaxis hate Germans!!!!!1(sic)

Just look at this page!

http://www.civ3.com/civoftheweek.cfm?civ=Germans

Put the mouse over their Unit. It's the ONLY UU that DIES instead of firing!!!

That's not all - the Germans were taken off the list of previous civilizations!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We're on to you companies!!!

	26-11-2001 14:02									#75
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Kind of sad, isn't it? How we are now working carefully to define what it is we can and can't change without worrying about a lawsuit?

Write this whole incident down in your notepads under the title: "Ways to shoot yourself: Corporate Blunders 101"

	26-11-2001 14:29									#76
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by GP You are quite within your rights to stop buying Infogrames games if you don't like their manners. But Warez is piracy. What that says is that you DO want the game...you just won't pay for it. It's like saying I shoplift crapy stuff only.

you are quite right in your reasoning. however, at least this time, i was questioning their consumer relations, not the quality of their product (thats in other threads ). so, if they sold a game that was $20 but came with no support, and was half-@ss, but was a good game (which they do make good games), then i would buy it, cause, well, you get what you pay for. but for $65(!) I expect at least tech support, and to not have sooo many issues.
they are just so anti-consumer (which this lawsuit emphisizes), why spend more than the game is worth, since you get nothing for it, other than an unfinished game with no support? if i could find infogrames games that are similar to Civ3 for $20, i'd buy it, but it doesnt work that way...its either pay $50 or piracy, so given those choices, i choose justified piracy. and since i just spent about 36 hours beta testing Civ3(after that i gave up, which is why i am in the forums now) their game for them (yes, my emails were that informative, and I even sent them fixes when i found them), and i get paid $25 and hour as a student, that means i can get about $650 worth of games for free, and since each game is $50, then i get about 13 games that i can get for free, for my services. my last email even asked for a discount on my next infogrames games for all the issues this game has...maybe i should just send them my lawyer and demand my repayment next time

quote: Infogrames is within their rights to launch the product at different times in different markets. And I agree with your analysis of the financial rationale for their actions. This is not "bad". They need to make monye to stay in business. Several software shops have been lsoign money lately.

true, but it is not just a matter of different markets. its also a matter of making a statement that you can only buy the game for your country, and your screwed if you cant speak english, and your screwed if you try to make it understandable. its like nauthorized country codes for DVD's (which, imo, is a crock of sh-t to begin with). and its also a matter of releasing the other 1/2 of the game that they promised, just for more money. (MP) they originally said MP was included, and even took orders for this game while the inclusion of MP was posted onthe official website. so, i am sorry, but this is bad.

	26-11-2001 14:48									#77
	Put an end to popups!

Recession hits Germany. Local IG tries to earn as much as it can. To be or not to be on the market. "One man is doing something we don't like. This is against law! We will loose money because of him. He should pay us $500!". This situation is pitiful.

Instead of wasting time for legal actions, IG can improve customer sevice, speed up translation. And I agree that unofficial German translation will boost the sales of the English version.

	26-11-2001 14:57									#78
	What you don't know ... Inflate your Upload Space

I've read the postings in the german infogrames forum ,and i have to add a few things.

According to coldfever (Fieback) , Infogrames Germany did take notice of the project, and at some point Infogrames Germany even offered licensing their inofficial translation. The Translation project crew was rather happy with the idea and offered the license for a small donation to "UNICEF - Children through the Winter"-Project and no money for themselves whatsoever.

One day after those talks, Fieback apparently received the first "cease and desist" mail. They took the webpage immediatly offline after that to show their cooperation, however to no effort.

Infogrames Germany now demands from Fieback, that he signs a "letter of guilt" making him responsible for the translation and the financial losses infogrames germany might suffer.

Fieback asked for some more time to consult his own Lawyer before signing the "letter of guilt" , however, Infogrames germany denied it.

Rather interesting, don't you think ?

Original German thread

In that thread is the original post from fieback and some posts from a infogrames admin if you can read german, that is

	26-11-2001 15:16									#79
	Re: What you don't know ... Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Fieback asked for some more time to consult his own Lawyer before signing the "letter of guilt" , however, Infogrames germany denied it.

Nein!!!!! Jü vill sign it, Ja? Ør elze zëë Sturmtrüppen vill git jü!!!


-FMK.

	26-11-2001 15:43									#80
	Re: Re: What you don't know ... Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh Nein!!!!! Jü vill sign it, Ja? Ør elze zëë Sturmtrüppen vill git jü!!! -FMK.

What do you mean with that?

Nevs23 (Zarathustra)

	26-11-2001 15:56									#81
	Tired of ads?

What exactly were they translating? Were they just changing the stuff you can change with the editor, or were they translating the manual and other stuff which isn't supported by the editor?

	26-11-2001 15:57									#82
	Put an end to popups!

lol, I mean that if this poor guy didnt sign the form, they were gonna make him do it anyway.

That was my best impression of a german accent, and I like to use all them fancy letters you guys get to use.


-FMK.

	26-11-2001 16:22									#83
	Support Apolyton

Can someone who speaks German find an email address for the highest possible honcho in Infogrames? I'd like to send him a message.

edit: never mind, I found it myself. Here's the address for the top corporate communications person for North America: nbushkin@us.infogrames.com

And here's the address for the person responsible for Europe: Christelle Gesler - cgesler@fr.infogrames.com

So, let's communicate!

Last edited by techumseh on 26-11-2001 at 16:43

	26-11-2001 16:42									#84
	Remove this text

quote: The reason for Infogrames' reaction seems to be that Infogrames Germany doesn't make a single penny on the US version of the game sold through Amazon Germany and other vendors.

quote: Infogrames at this time has no choice but to formally stop the translation project. In this regard we are obligated to Firaxis, and this also applies from a legal standpoint.

Well, I don't know what to make of this. The first paragraph is from the article on that other web page. The second one is from the Infogrames German translation.

If the first paragraph is true then OF COURSE Infogrames Germany should take action and I couldn't blame them. Their response seems harsh, but they probably want to show that they are serious.

However, what of the second paragraph? Obligated to Firaxis? Why should Firaxis care about this? They get their money whether the Germans buy the modded English version or the upcoming German version in March 2002, don't they? If it's due to some other reason then an explanation would be helpful.

This is all very unfortunate, indeed. I really enjoy Civ 3. However, looking back at the multiplayer issue, the scenario editor issue, the unpolished final product, and now this, it appears that there is a lot of Mickey Mouse stuff going on here.

quote: ...its either pay $50 or piracy, so given those choices, i choose justified piracy.

BOOO!

So then, you are entitled to free ownership of every product you don't like?

Get your refund just like what some of the other people have posted. In fact, didn't you already say you were going to do just that?

It's a sad day, indeed, when crime is justified as a reasonable choice. I've seen other posts in the past that portray it as the only choice.

	26-11-2001 16:48									#85
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by yin26 Kind of sad, isn't it? How we are now working carefully to define what it is we can and can't change without worrying about a lawsuit? Write this whole incident down in your notepads under the title: "Ways to shoot yourself: Corporate Blunders 101"

Yes, all the "incident" is unbelievable!

I started some thread times ago publicy asking for a large "do it yourself" freedom of translation of the game text.

I can't believe someone in this field is doing a so idiotic move to cover not the selling of the game itself, nor the copyright of the developer, but the distribution agreement of localized version

Why, oh why, are so many people really trying hard to trash my once loved Civ sequel into a rushed game, who you can't improve (for free!) if not at your own risk?

After a (hopefully effective) patch, I was ready to buy the game and start modding and (perhaps) modify some text to better fit my (italian) culture and language.

Now, if I'll get a 500 USD fine I'll probably get a plane and route myself to the nearest airport to put the whole amount right up some private hole of a "once admired" game developer

Really, I can't see a worst use of copyright law in modern game market, where the "customization" approach is gaining momentum everywhere.

	26-11-2001 16:56									#86
	Inforames corporate "philosophy" and CEO "Bruno" Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Here's a nice link to the corporate site - maybe you can find something nice to quote.

http://www.infogrames.com/corp_strategy.php

	26-11-2001 17:29									#87
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

This whole situation is pathetic. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. Much ado about nothing.

If a translation by fans takes place, this would cause the number of "Translated Civ" sales to drop. However, this would be offset exactly by an increase in sales of the US version. If the infogames business model is too out of date to take advantage of this situation, then they will and should suffer a loss. It balances out. Perhaps it could even save the time of the guy who is sitting at his terminal, feeding in lines of Civ 3 text into babbelfish...
Same company, practically the same product, but causing a massive public relations fiasco.

I heard some months ago that infogames was in financial trouble. Im hoping that this will put the final nail in the coffin for those scum sucking pigs, whos only contribution to our lives was to take our money and treat us with a high level of contempt. May they rot in hell.

	26-11-2001 17:32									#88
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I am really disgusted by all this.

For me it was allready difficult to wait 2 weeks (from 31/10 to 16/11) to buy civ3, but if you are in Germany and don't speak English you have to wait 4 to 5 months!

And than get an injunction, I allways hated it when I got one in ctp!

I don't understand why Firaxis doesn't take action. I certainly hope civ4 will not be published by Infogrames.

Maybe the only thing the German fans did wrong is informing Infogrames about it. If they just made a German Mod and upload it here at Apolyton, there would probably not have been a problem....

	26-11-2001 17:43									#89
	Got spare money?

first, excuse me for my poor english.

I think that Firaxis should create a special version for German players which include a new unit called 'InfoGrames Lawyer'.
This unit would allow you to gain a few gold per turn but on the other hand it would provoke a great unrest in your city.

	26-11-2001 18:42									#90
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: I mean those guys were responsible enough to contact Firaxis and Infogrames and what do they get? A 500$ bill from the lawyer! Couldn't Infogrames be nicer?

Couldn't Infogrames be more human ? They look like a giant capitalistic black hole right now.

quote: Why shoot with cannons on flys?

This one is easy : the fly (0/1/12) could somehow survive against weaker units considering Civ3's new combat system so they took cannons (8/1/1).