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ScottVib
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Awesome idea... anyone who edits anything should send them a seperate email asking for express permission to make the one change.
Something tells me Infogrames would get sick of that really quick...
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Adm.Naismith
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Milano - Italy
Oct 1999
time: 06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Adm.Naismith
MarkG, I have enjoyed your (and DanQ) site for more of a couple of years. Usually I had liked a lot, sometime not, but I have a "positive feeling" with the site and its community in general.
So I hope you consider to shut down your file section: let's admit it , you are risking a legal action just for your support of the game, from the same people should award you two for yours efforts (and most of the game community, too).
I understand you risk to lost hits while removing mod/map files, but as the things are twisting you and everyone in Internet Game Community should step back from this kind of Civ 3 support.
Until Firaxis AND Infogrames clearly define what a fan can and what can't do with the game "largely editable" feature, I humbly suggest you to play the safe side.
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Sorry if I quote myself, but I'll be happy to see Mark and Dan taking an official position about the "MOD & others files" and the "CIV 3 Strategy" area, considering the last two legal move of Infogrames.
Are you speaking with Firaxis/Infogrames to achieve some kind of legal, official permission to keep up that part of the site?
Are you taking personal financial risk just to keep up your right of expression? 
Are you cooperating with others "fan sites" to manage this unbelivable mess?
Are you speaking with your lawyer right now at the phone? 
Seriusly, I don't like the idea that the whole Apolyton site and Forum may suffer a sudden closure because of some stupid abuse of copyrights vs. what the same company mentioned on the game box 
Would you please reassure me and all the others Apolytoner?
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Lemming
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Vienna, Austria
Nov 2001
time: 06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkG
can someone translate the full thing?
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ok, i tried to translate the stuff, forgive me if there are any errors, english isn't my primary language...however it should be quite understandable;
------------------------------------------
Infogrames Statement
Hi alltogether! (Comment: Wow, how “buddy-like”)
During the last days we’ve received numerous questions and complaints regarding the unofficial Civ3-Translation-project. So we will explain the reasons for our actions in the following statement:
Generally we would like to say that we welcome ideas and concepts coming from fans and/or members of our community. We have already supported various projects in the past and will continue to do so in the future. However, in some cases – like the current translation project – we are forced to refuse any support.
The game Civilization III is, like many products of all kind, protected by copyright. Firaxis, who (directed by Sid Meier) has invented and created the game, is actually holding the rights. Now if someone wants to change parts of the product or to use parts of the product in any other ways as intended, the involved group or person has to ask for a written permission from the copyright holder or his legal representation (in this case Infogrames). This procedure should be common knowledge after all. For example no private person has tried to translate the latest Harry Potter novel into German and put it onto the internet, just because the English version comes out first. The author or his publisher would try to stop that for understable reasons. So this is also true for Civilization III. Certainly the creators of the translation project tried to reach Infogrames per Email – but that is no privilege to start the project without an appropriate permission. Regrettably the response time of these emails (email-adresses) is much longer than we would like it to be. However you can also contact us everytime by phone or mail. Unfortunately the project group didnt use one of these possibilities.
Our contract with Firaxis says that we have to take immediate action in case of any copyright violation, so we had to take the necessary legal steps. Because the initiators of the project are actually part of the Civilization-Community, we decided not to react with an interim order but only with an injunction order (I hope i got this right). This is the most lenient action we could have taken to preserve our and Firaxis’ claims. This injunction order was delivered (?) not only to the head of the fan-project but also to the operator of the website www.civ3.de, where we first read of the translation project. In both cases, Infogrames paid the costs which usually arise from an injunction order. We reached a settlement with the operator of the website, after he signed the injunction order and there are no further steps planned against him. Unfortunately the head of the project has only insufficiently signed the order and threatened multiple times to have a bad influence on the public mood in the forums, if we dont agree to his demands of taking back the injunction order. In his last Email he suggests to admit his own negligence if Infogrames publically apologizes for various points, which in the end have only arised because of his actions and not of ours, and if Infogrames considers hiring him as a community manager. But for us that’s out of question not only because of what has happened in the last few days.
Finally we want to say that we are sorry for the fact that a project, that in the end was started to help other Civilization-fans had to go this way...Moreover we are hoping that the project leader reconsiders his point of view, so that we dont have to take any further legal actions.
----------------------
BS if u ask me...
i didnt translate the last part...it was about the status of the german translation and they will do it much much better and that the work of the project team was rather incomplete...so why do they even care??
IG  FU!!!
Last edited by Lemming on 29-11-2001 at 22:08
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Farmer Jimbo
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Silly naive me thought that this couldn't get any worse. How stupid could I have been! Even the rough systran translation of the newest infogrames.de announcement has several obvious new peices of information:
1.) We continue to hide behind the veil of protecting Sid and Firaxis (when we are really only trying to protect our second quarter earnings). Even though we claim we are protecting Sid and Firaxis, we will continue to insist that any communications go through us since we would rather that Sid and Firaxis know nothing about this.
2.) We will now start our campaign to slander Kai and the actions of the translation team. Our first step is to imply that by posting his project on our message board, and by sending us an email about it, he deliberately tried to hide the project from us knowing that we never read our email or discussion forums. We will also equate his actions with that of someone who sells pirate copies of Harry Potter books.
3.) We will also claim that the way we handled this was very mild and as kind and benevolent to our poor misguided Deutch fans. We will imply though that we can be very nasty very quickly if you don't all stop pestering us about this.
4.) We will come right out and say that the project itself was crap, and would never have amounted to anything approaching the glorious localized product you will buy in March. Further, you would have waited well beyond March anyway for the lackluster drivel that Kai and company was working on.
5.) Finally, thank you fans for all your support and don't ever dare bother us again or we will sue you for all your worth.
All the best
Infogrames.de
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Mergle
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I must say, I think the comparison to pirating a Harry Potter novel is off-beam. Kai and the others were not offering a ripped version of civ3 translated into German - they were offering a *mod* which could only be used if someone had bought an English-language version.
I don't think IG do themselves any favours with spurious comparisons like that.
That said, I think IG has a perfect right to protect its intellectual property. If they wish to monopolise translations, so be it. They did it in a very cack-handed fashion, however. They should simply have replied to Kai's email saying "please stop", and then set the (lawyer) dogs on him if he hadn't. Charging him for lawyer's fees is completely unnecessary.
I think they are making a bad decision business-wise, however. This treatment of the fans has convinced me, for one, not to buy civ3 (and I'm the sort of mug who bought CTP2 on the first day). I was vacillating after hearing mixed things about the game on the forum, but now my mind is made up. I'll buy MOO3 to show support for Quicksilver (who have been excellent communicators with the fans - something that makes me suspicious that Firaxis is so tight-lipped and everyone blames IG for everything- surely alan emrich can't have more clout than sid when negotiating with IG? If he can actso independently, why can't Firaxis), but other IG games are off my list.
I will observe that I'm not convinced IG would have won in court against Kai - the mod-friendly approach trumpeted by Firaxis up to now seems to me to at least suggest an implied licence. However, that argument no longer applies, as IG has made its position clear. I would strongly recommend anyone considering posting *any* mods on the Internet to think twice - IG has given you clear warning that it will not tolerate such things. In the absence of any implied or explicit licence, you will be slaughtered in court. There has been no indication from IG that it considers translations to be different from other sorts of mods.
I'm afraid that advice also applies to the Apolyton file store for mods. I think IG would have to be brain-dead to threaten to sue Apolyton, but I haven't seen a great deal of inspired PR from them recently.
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Qnuc.dk
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Denmark
Nov 2001
time: 05:16
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this is about using copyright to protect product salesment right?
or protect product integrity
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dr.charm
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Cybershy, your comparison is fallacious.
If a friend copied the book into dutch and sold/gave it to you, that's piracy.
If however, you bought the book in English, but couldn't read it, and then your friend gave you his Dutch translation of it, *that* would be a valid comparison. Especially if J.K. Rowling had said 'I really want everyone to enjoy this book, so feel free to mess around with it and give your fanfic to friends who have bought the book.'
Cheers,
Dr. Charm
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Red.Damage
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quote:
Originally posted by dr.charm
If however, you bought the book in English, but couldn't read it, and then your friend gave you his Dutch translation of it, *that* would be a valid comparison.
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If I may notice: There was a project that translated Harry Potter into german language. All the people who contributed to this project were allowed to download the text but they were not allowed to share it with the rest of the world.
Therefore the comparison of IG seems to be quite an own goal...
(BTW: I read about the HP-project in the german IG-forum)
So long
Red Damage
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ColdFever
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Luebeck, Germany
Sep 2001
time: 06:16
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This is Kai Fiebach from Germany.
I am stunned.
They are referring to an email I wrote to them on last Saturday in a desperate effort to save what could be saved before the ultimatum of their lawyers expired.
I indeed did warn, that the community would not welcome the consequences of a juridical approach against the fans, and indeed I even offered to help the company to regain reputation if we could settle this affair for good (while making clear I had no further personal ambitions).
The original mail (in German) today I made public here in the original project thread inside the Infogrames forum:
http://www.infogrames.de/ubb/Forum18/HTML/000006.html
From this personal and humble letter they made a threat to spoil their reputation and an effort to press me into their company. It feels like the hand I offered has been stroke off. This hurts.
Last edited by ColdFever on 30-11-2001 at 02:46
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CyberShy
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Delft, The Netherlands
Mar 1999
time: 06:16
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quote:
If however, you bought the book in English, but couldn't read it, and then your friend gave you his Dutch translation of it, *that* would be a valid comparison. Especially if J.K. Rowling had said 'I really want everyone to enjoy this book, so feel free to mess around with it and give your fanfic to friends who have bought the book. |
that's what I mean.
buy the english book and get a translation from a friend.
that's illegal. It won't be mentioned though, but when you start spreading it over the net........... it's illegal.
Even if you require proof that the people bought the book in english. It's simply not allowed to translate a book, and spread that translation under ANY circumstances.
there are different reasons:
1. the local seller doesn't make any profit (he'll sue you, not the international seller)
2. mistakes made by you will be blamed to the seller and the author
3. People will blame the seller / author for not releasing it in their own lanague so that some volunteers needed to translate it.
4. After the official translation will have been released, nobody will be sure which version is which and there will be confusion.
#4 might be very minor, but these are the reasons.
Like it or not, I think it's very common for anything you buy.
And if you start to insult the company, and treat them by spreading dark rumors and bad influences about them.......... well, that's really 
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dr.charm
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But the analogy breaks down for a few reasons 1) because the developer of the game (and the patent holder incidentally) has said "Mod away!" "Change anything you want!" "Just don't try to get money for it." and 2) because in order to play the German translation mod, you must have the game, it's not like putting a translated book on the net available for everyone.
The only fair comparison would be if J.K. Rowling said, go ahead translate the book, you can only download it from the net if you type in the secret code that is in every English copy of the book and then Scholastic started going after the translator.
I think you're missing the point. Kai was doing something that was explicitly allowed in both the EULA and on the box the game came in! In addition Firaxis has repeatedly said 'Mod away! Go crazy!"
Cheers,
Dr. Charm
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Ecthy
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Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:16
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Hey, ColdFever... ich hab die Sache nicht haargenau verfolgt, hab nur ein paar News Items gelesen hier, den Thread werd ich mir jetzt nicht reinziehen...
Aber du musst wissen, dass auch Landsleute zu dir halten, und zwar alteingesessene Mitglieder dieser Gemeinde. NAtürlich unterstütze auch ich sowas, also kämpf, kämpf, kämpf, kämpf, kämpf... wenn ich dir bei der Übersetzung helfen kann, sag ruhig Bescheid 
Im Übrigen, was würdest du davon halten, wenn die Anwaltskosten als Kosten der Gemeinde und nicht des mutigen Vorkämpfers getagen werden? Klar, worauf ich hinaus will? 
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SKev
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Phoenix, AZ
Nov 2001
time: 22:16
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Although I hesitate to get bogged down in this discussion, I must put in my two cents:
Copyright protection for original works is a valuable asset. Violations of a copyright must be acted on or the copyright holder risks losing the exclusive right to profit from their original work. It is as simple as that. Good will towards the Civ or MOD community has nothing to do with this dispute. The business concerns of Infogrames regarding its divisions, sales agreements and profitability are probably true, but not nearly as significant as the protection of copyrighted material. Plus, It is their game, they can market and sell it however they chose. Don’t like it, don’t support them. Remember, they exist to make money, not to make you or anyone else happy. While keeping die hard fans happy may be a good way to reach the goal of making money, it is not the only way—and many times not the best way.
The German translation of the program is not a MOD. I understand the translated files could not be used without actually purchasing the game, but that is not the proper standard for determining a copyright violation. It is also irrelevant that the translator claims he would have distributed the file for free. The difference is in the “originality” of the MOD when compared to the “originality” of the translation.
The creation of a traditional MOD requires a measure of original “artistic” creativity by the author. This is true whether the author has created five minute movies for each wonder, revised every unit animation or simply changed the attributes of a single unit. It entails a marginal amount of independent, artistic effort. I suspect the original part of most MODs are technically protected by copyright law in favor of the author, but once the author freely distributes the MOD any copyright protection it had is lost.
A translation, on the other hand, is not an original artistic creation by the translator. It is a mere change in form of someone else’s original artistic work, not a “new” work. I know translating all the text in the game is a huge task, but the fact that it takes a long time to do it doesn’t make the translation an original work. I also know translations are somewhat subjective (or “artistic”) because literal translations are impossible. Someone could argue the translation is therefore a “new work.” It doesn’t work that way.
Someone above asked about a “derivative work.” Simply put, the copyright owner has the right to control subsequent works based on their original work. The most common examples of this are the movie or TV rights to a book, but it can include really weird things like the right to make and sell Lite-Brite patterns of a painting or the more valuable right to change “tangible” works to “digital” works. The right to control derivative works therefore includes the right to control translations.
This is why the “Harry Potter” analogy is, ignoring the “fair use” exception to copyright law, basically correct. Regardless of whether you or someone else translate a copyrighted work that you purchase, you don’t have the right to make a translation of the copyrighted text and give it away or sell it. I’d argue that it is probably a “fair use” if a parent purchased the book and translated it so his kid could read it (or the dude in Germany translated the program for himself and his family), but that is splitting hairs and getting far off-point.
The hand-wringing about whether this site is going to be shut down or Mark is going to be sued is unwarranted if not just downright silly. What the guy did in Germany was a clear violation of copyright law. The files on this site are obviously MODs, something Firaxis has encouraged. There does appear to be a contradiction in the copyright statement/license agreement distributed with the game and Firaxis’s “pro-change everything” statements (which is not, by the way, “entrapment.”). If I thought long and hard enough, I could probably come up with some way to reconcile the two (like the editor shipped with the game creates a separate rules files when the user modifies anything, so the “original” files are still intact and not altered and thus Firaxis can encourage changes without permitting the alteration of copyrighted files, but I’m not sure that’s really true ….)
I don’t think anyone here needs to worry too much about getting sued. Common sense should be your guide. Firaxis or Infogrames is not going to chase down someone for failing to obtain permission before distributing a file altering the stats of a submarine or even changing every rule in the game. Start distributing original files copied directly from the game but merely changing the font size, color, etc., however, you’re going to get busted.
Kev
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Farmer Jimbo
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If this was Slashdot I'd mark that post as Insightful SKev. I also reserve the right to continue to lambast Infogrames.de for abysmally poor way they have handled this mess. I'm trying to think of a way that could have screwed this up more from a PR stand-point, but I'm coming up blank.
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29-11-2001 20:08
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