26-11-2001 18:16									#1
	What are the benefits of "We love the queen day" in Democracy? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I can't find anything specific in the manual about what the benefits of "we love the queen day" are, only general stuff about reducing corruption. In particular, what is it worth in Democracy when corruption is low anyway?

	26-11-2001 22:39									#2
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"An ongoing We Love the King Day lowers the levels of corruption and waste, makes the city less likely to defect, and significantly increases the chance of failure if your enemies attempt to initiate propaganda here."

-- manual, page 119

	27-11-2001 17:15									#3
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Thanks DarkMatter - I did read that, but the thing is that none of those problems are significant in Democracy, so I was wondering if there were some other benefits (apart from the pretty fireworks) when you have this type of government.

	27-11-2001 20:56									#4
	Propaganda Tired of ads?

The best feature and also its worst is that its completely immune to propaganda. This is great for the player but also helps the AI as it switches to Dem as soon as it gets it, making spying pointless.

2cents.

	27-11-2001 23:00									#5
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Not sure I agree that spying is pointless against Democracies. You can still steal technologies, and as they are democracies they can't spend too much time at war with you if they catch you. If they switch to another government to make war against you, you could subvert their cities really easily I think while they are in anarchy.

Anyway it doesn't answer the question of whether there is any point in having your cities in "I love the queen day" when you are a democracy. In my game I can set luxuries to 0 and still everybody is quite content, or should I set to 10% and get a couple of cities to love me?

	27-11-2001 23:06									#6
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quote: Originally posted by DarkMatter "An ongoing We Love the King Day lowers the levels of corruption and waste, makes the city less likely to defect, and significantly increases the chance of failure if your enemies attempt to initiate propaganda here." -- manual, page 119

That is true, however look at page 118:

While the circumstances that support this celebratory mood continue, the city enjoys certain benefits, depending on your civilization's type of government.

This is what I think the original post was all about. I posted about this a while back, unfortunately there is no information and until civ players crack down on all the stats, I don't think we'll know.

Unless firaxis would be kind enough to post some stats, effects, etc of a WLTKD.

	28-11-2001 00:46									#7
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I would like to ask Matthevv about not having problems with corruption when democracy. I have great problem with corruption even though I do have democracy goverment. I have built the courthauses. My empire is quite extensive. I have big cities which are completely useless because of the corruption, they even cost me money as there are all the buildings built in that cities. The only cities which earn some money and are able to produce a building or a unit in reasonable time are several cities around the capital. Overall the corruption is more than half out of my whole income. I'm really annoyed with the corruption as I cannot fight that anyhow. Even "We love the queen day" doesn't significantly eliminate corruption.

Thanks Luke...

Last edited by LukeCz on 28-11-2001 at 00:55

	28-11-2001 01:36									#8
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We love the saint day

	28-11-2001 02:10									#9
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knott: yep, france all the way..

which brings up an interesting point.. you think that the "special stats" have anything to do with your title? A saint might have different effects than a mahatma, etc...

	28-11-2001 14:42									#10
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My guess is that if he doesn't have problems with the corruption, he's playing on a tiny map. Both the distance from the capital and the raw number of cities make corruption and waste worse. If you start in a corner and expand across half the map, even standard map size will have places where two thirds of the income is lost. On huge, even moving my capital in the middle didn't solve that much.

*sigh* I had hoped that having a police station would combat corruption. WTH does police have to do with reducing war weariness? No, really.

	28-11-2001 15:53									#11
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So no benefits for a WLTQ/KD specificaly for a democracy?

As to the police station, perhaps Firaxis is making a statement: The police are part of the system to suppress the people not to stop crime. I've noticed computer games are great for sliding in these kind of value judgements unnoticed.
I suppose Nuclear energy gets a bad deal as well?
Don't want meltdowns: build a nuclear pebble bed reactor tied into a hydrogen gasturbine!

BTW isn't Firaxis reducing the effect of corruption/waste in the patch?

Robert

Go nuclear go!

	28-11-2001 18:38									#12
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My Civ is quite small, just 8 cities, which is probably why I don't see any significant corruption or waste. I also have a "forbidden city?" wonder that helps I think. From what people are posting, with a more extensive empire, corruption and waste are still a problem in democracy, so the WLTKD is still useful. If so, this is great game design as it balances out the ICS problem, because as you plant more and more cities, they become progressively less productive unless you spend money to keep them happy.

	30-11-2001 01:34									#13
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Thank Matthevv for the reply. You don't see any significant corruption or waste because your Civ is not very extensive so all of your cities are probably close enough to the capital. I do have "forbidden city" as well but it doesn't significanly help as my Civ is quite extensive.

I guess I have about 50 cities (I didn't count them up). I'm playing on a large map. My cities do have courthouses and many of them celebrate WLTKD but nothing of those help to considerably lower the corruption and waste.
If somebody wants have a look here is a link to my saved game (265 kB) in SFX archive:

Luke's Saved Game

I reckon that corruption is a great idea and it shouldn't be changed but there should more effective devices to fight the corruption even very expensive so you could build up really important cities not only around the capital otherewise there is no point to expand your empire, only to acquire the resources would be the only one point.

LukeCz

Last edited by LukeCz on 30-11-2001 at 01:51

	30-11-2001 20:48									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

IMHO both corruption and pollution are just plain old broken.

Corruption: Yeah, at 8 cities it's just fine and dandy. Now take a standard (not even large!) map, and spread in an east-west direction, like a spear, across the whole map. (Sort of like the USA goes from coast to coast, only thinner.) I have some cities where (after buying a lot of improvements from taxing the other cities), there are like 20-30 shields lost to corruption, and only _1_ (ONE!) to actually producing anything.

I don't know about Firaxis's idea of what a police station does, or how else to combat corruption, but at that level of corruption you can bet your rear that heads would roll under any government. Picture a city in your country where 95% or more of the production is lost to corruption. At that level it's not even just corruption any more, it's downright organized crime. It's a city ruled by the mafia, who doesn't pay any taxes any more. Don't you think the government would want to get into the act, and see wth is happening there?

Pollution: I mean, really, I have maybe 1 or 2 pollution squares appearing per turn, and 50+ workers clearing them immediately. (None of my opponents is advanced enough to cause any pollution.) And I keep losing squares to global warming. How in the name of bleeding heck, do 1 or 2 tons of pollution per YEAR trigger global warming of a whole planet? I mean, really, even the CO2 exhaled by only the humans of a single of my cities is far more than that.