26-11-2001 18:43									#1
	Size 12 Cities and Sanitation... Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Yet again, another "is-this-just-me" thread:

Is this just me, or do you end up with size 12 Cities way before being anywhere near researching Sanitation?

I know this is more a gameplay issue (i.e. my style of play) but I just wondered what other people's strategies were for coping with this. In Civ2 I would usually start to get a couple of cities maxing at size 12 by the time I discovered Sanitation. With Civ3, I have a lot (maybe 50%) of my cities at size 12 for some time before I reach sanitation.

I am managing to keep my research rates up high (70%+) and research is reasonable, so are my cities just growing too fast? I have tried tailoring my research to chase Sanitation ASAP but this does not help much and I seem to have a lot of cities kicking around at size 12 and not reaching their full potential until a lot later.

Can anyone offer any insight on this?

	26-11-2001 19:53									#2
	Suffering from ads?

I do think the timing on Sanitation is a little off.

	26-11-2001 19:57									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

There are some games when I have had this problem and some where I only had my core 3-4 cities that were up that high. I remember the one game I had the problem almost every city the turn I got sanitation wanted to switch from whatever they were doing to hospitals, that took forever to get through all those govenor screens What I have done in my games when I haven't really had the problem is to keep expanding and to build more workers (cause I usually can use them up until I have my area coverd in railroads). You will have this problem more if you all your cities are on really good food producing land too (though I am sure that is obvous enough to you). My current game I had a bunch of cities in the desert, though most were on the coast to get some more food esp. once I built harbors. Needless to say, I didn't have the problem in this game except with a few cities.

	26-11-2001 20:01									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I have the same problem - even Mohenjo-Daro had underground sewers sussed out, so making us wait until the industrial age is a bit rough...

On the other hand, cities with more than a million or so inhabitants (I forget what population size 12 represents) were pretty rare before the industrial revolution, and this is one way of modelling that.

	26-11-2001 20:14									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: On the other hand, cities with more than a million or so inhabitants (I forget what population size 12 represents) were pretty rare before the industrial revolution

I think that very much depends on how much you want historical accuracy, really. If this is the case, then I think the amount of food per map square should have been reduced a little as I am seeing too many cities getting too large too early.

AFAIK, there are two factors at play:

- Food production (i.e. has the amount of food produced per map square gone up/down?)

And:

- Tech tree (i.e. has Sanitation been moved up the tech tree?)

I remember in Civ2 you can get Sanitation during the Ancient/Renaissance period (Roman sewers). This was good as it suits fast growth whilst still requiring you to build your infrastructure and research techs. With Civ3 it seems we're stuck with Hospitals (no Sewers) which are very much an Industrial/Modern improvement.

Anyone got any suggestive tactics to get around this? I'm surprised people haven't talked about this one before as I assumed most people would be going for big cities as soon as possible (to drive up Commerce).

	26-11-2001 20:25									#6
	Support Apolyton

In order to maximize the drive throught the tech tree we will need to get a better understanding of what techs the AI researches so that we can trade more efficiently.

If you are not going to use forced labor to rush then there is little need to build a granary, pop grows very fast and you will be stuck at 12.

When my first city gets to 12 I then switch to workers which are very cheap. I then join them to other cities and you can have all of your core cities at pop 12 very, very early in the game.

One reason not to rush to build large cities is that specialists are not very productive and larger pops are harder to keep happy.

Once you are working every tile in the city radius there is little to be gained by increasing pop in Civ3.

	26-11-2001 20:29									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

It's time to change some beloved old strategies.

In Civ1 and 2 (and CTP1 and 2) I seldom built settlers in cities, which had reached a certain size in order to get these cities as big as possible.

In my first Civ3-games I recognized the problem you described and started to build settlers especially in my biggest cities.

Works fine!

	26-11-2001 20:40									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

The most important change from Civ2 concerning city growth is that much less food is required for the city to grow. I believe this change is good, since the only way to get large cities in Civ2 was to boost them up with a We Love the President day. As you know, this is not possible anymore in Civ3.

So your cities grow fast, and soon many will be at size 12. So, naturally, it is a good idea to crank out some workers, since the city soon will be up at size 12 again. Now, if you somehow still live in despotism (or anarchy), you can quickly and cheap build some city improvements, since they are hurried by wasting some of the population. I used it with much success in my current game to build libraries in my most important cities.

	26-11-2001 20:45									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: In order to maximize the drive throught the tech tree we will need to get a better understanding of what techs the AI researches so that we can trade more efficiently.

OK but deciding how much tech you want/need to trade with the AI should be a personal strategic decision and not be dictated by the game itself.

quote: If you are not going to use forced labor to rush then there is little need to build a granary, pop grows very fast and you will be stuck at 12.

I am not building granaries directly but am building The Pyramids, which is part of the reason why I'm seeing fast growth.

quote: When my first city gets to 12 I then switch to workers which are very cheap. I then join them to other cities and you can have all of your core cities at pop 12 very, very early in the game.

That's a good trick, thanks. However, this simply compounds the problem rather than help solve it!

quote: One reason not to rush to build large cities is that specialists are not very productive and larger pops are harder to keep happy.

Well, this has always really been the case even with Civ2. Specialists aren't that bad and the point I'm driving at is when I have 30 odd cities, I don't really want any more, I just want to expand the ones I have. I'd rather not have 60 small cities over a larger area as it's more difficult to defend.

quote: Once you are working every tile in the city radius there is little to be gained by increasing pop in Civ3.

Yes but that limit is around size 27 (AFAIK) and size 12 isn't really that big IMHO. Seems as though I'm being forced to sit around a wait for quite a while before I can get my cities over size 12....

	26-11-2001 21:38									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Part of the problem is the linear aspect of the game towards Rapid Early Expansion, all the AIs do it, expansionist or not, but in addition the AIs also seems to irrigate, mine and roadbuild everything in sight, sometimes even squares that are not used by cities, indicating a high use of Workers as well as Settlers.

The only trait of an "expansionist" AI appears to be that there are more cities tightly packed together

The rule is to build Workers as every second unit, this would drastically cut down your growth. Building lots of combat units doesn't allow for many city improvements, another growth restriction, notice how few improvements are in cities you take over peacefully - not even a Granary !

The tech tree model has probably been designed to how AIs act, not human players, and serves their timeline perfectly. But to be honest, trying to reach Alpha Centuri before Christ is a bit rediculous anyway, so some human players do need slowing down.

	26-11-2001 22:29									#11
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by xane notice how few improvements are in cities you take over peacefully - not even a Granary !

Though by definition, the sorts of city that get taken over have few improvements, otherwise they wouldn't get taken over...

	26-11-2001 22:32									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I too have to agree that the Sanitation tech is important for the grwoth of your cities, but you just get it too late. It's roughly 1460 AD in my current game and about 50% of my cities are size 12. Now what am I supposed do? Wait until Sanitation or just colonise the world? I don't meant I wouldn't have a clue, but I'm just a bit disappointed.

	27-11-2001 00:44									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Well, I use the time before Sanitation for preparations for it
So when I finally discover it, cities already have the needed happines improvements, and factories before I start building Hospitals. Also, this often gives time to build "wealth" or make an occasional war for coal or saltpeter, with the luxury of building military without sacrificing city improvements.

	27-11-2001 00:59									#14
	Get a bigger avatar today!

"Well, I use the time before Sanitation for preparations for it
So when I finally discover it, cities already have the needed happines improvements, and factories before I start building Hospitals. Also, this often gives time to build "wealth" or make an occasional war for coal or saltpeter, with the luxury of building military without sacrificing city improvements."

i do the same thing...and when i DO get sanitation and build hospitals in my size 12 cities, commerce goes up a ton from all the growth.