27-11-2001 04:20									#1
	For the Expansion Pack: Two types of borders Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

In either the expansion pack or (more likely) CivIV, we need to differentiate between cultural and national borders. National borders would be established around colonies as well as cities, and could be expanded just by moving units into a square and claiming that land. You could only claim land a certain distance from one of your colonies or cities, or possibly that was completely surrounded by your territory, and national borders could be negotiated with other civs. If you are at war, your national borders could change to where the actual front lines are. This would decrease the emphasis on cities in war and encourage the establishment of defensive lines. Colonies would become much more usefull. Cultural borders would play some role in where you could establish your borders. Cultural borders, however would be almost entirely revamped. Cultrual borders could overlap, and they would not absorb enemy cities into your own country. Instead, countries under your cultural influence would become more and more like a semiautonomous appendage of your country. You don't see Canadian cities revolting and joining the United States, do you? Yet how often do you see opposing the U.S.? Also, cultural borders could even start emanating out of cities in countries who you do trade with often, or who you are often involved in the affairs of. Again, I refer to the United States, as American culture has influenced that of the Japanese and others. Lastly, colonies should be like cities in that they can be built on any tile, not just a resource tile, get resources (as in food, shields, and trade) from the tile they are on, and use those shields, etc. to produce units and improvements. Colonies could even grow, and work more tiles. However, to keep them from becoming too powerful, they cannot produce settlers, they can revolt and join another country or form their own country (if the second, all of the colonies would become cities) due to culture or government, and they could not build wonders. Captured cities would act like colonies, also. You could make a colony into a city, however, by moving one of your settlers into the colony and giving it the order to "build city." The downside to this is that the colony would gain no population from this, helping to keep them from becoming more efficient than cities.

	27-11-2001 04:31									#2
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I like your idea. Something I've thought of for awhile but haven't been able to put into words. And this is definetely a Civ IV thing, too much just for an XPack.

The thing about cultural borders. Instead of instant revolutions, a couple of citizens coudl convert to your culture (take on your traits, your color, etc...) a little at a time. And then, once you had a majority or so, there could be a sort of silent revolution where they don't so much overthrow the government but start working for you. I guess that's sorta what you said...

	27-11-2001 04:43									#3
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Some quite good ideas there, IMHO.

	27-11-2001 05:01									#4
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Lorizael, you're probably right that this won't appear in the expansion. But do we really have to wait another five years before these changes might or might not be implemented?

	27-11-2001 07:14									#5
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Lorizael, you're probably right that this won't appear in the expansion. But do we really have to wait another five years before these changes might or might not be implemented?

I'm fine with it the way it is. Culture and borders are fairly new things for the Civ series, as always it will take some time to perfect. And you don't have to wait, there's always freeciv or GGS or some of those other games.

	27-11-2001 07:22									#6
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Actually, I seem to recall that when quebec was considering independence, there was some discussion of it possibly joining the US rather than going it alone.

Personally, while this whole revolution thing was a damn good idea, I just don't think that it works out too well.

At the very least, my troops should be escorted to the border when they declare independence. This isn't civ2 where the city was supporting them, these troops could be from a continent away. If Connecticut revolts a military base with troops from texas probably wouldn't be interested in joining them, or just dissapearing.