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heron
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Woerden, The Netherlands
Nov 2001
time: 06:16
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I've been playing civ3 for some time now but it bothers me that the Americans are in as a civlization. I mean, they only exist for about 200 years. They don't even have some history.
I say remove them from the game and put in some real people, like the Inca's, the Jews or some African people.
Made it a poll so I can see what other people think.
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Akka
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In front of my computer.
Nov 2001
time: 06:16
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None of them should be removed, except perhaps the Germans.
All of these civilizations have a culture that is really their own, had at some point a tremendous power and influence in their area, and left us memories about them.
USA are actually a superpower and are in a state that would be the "golden age" in Civ3. The US culture, as low-quality as it is, is largely spread and overwhelm most of the other countries cultures. There is a lot of things that, when we see/hear them, can NOT be associated with anything but USA (Hollywood, country music, etc...). They ARE a civilization, and historians in the year 2400 won't be able to tell that american civ did not existed.
Iroquois and Zulu are the representants of cultures/civ that western people don't much know about. Native americans and old african empires had their own culture, which existed only here. I can hardly tell the difference between the Mali empire culture and the Zulu one, but it's most probably only because my ignorance about african culture make them look a lot alike, like for people from other cultures, Rome and the ancient Greece just are the same. Discarding any civ just because we don't know about them shows only ignorance.
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xane
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quote:
The US culture, as low-quality as it is, is largely spread and overwhelm most of the other countries cultures |
If "US Culture" is defined as succumbing to hype, then the above statement is probably true. The crux of quite a few arguments is that many people actually think American "culture" rules the world, a fact sadly untrue, although it could be said "anti-American culture" is more dominant 
Hollywood pales in comparison to Bollywood, all the great American inventions are merely re-inventions of other established culture products (Hamburgers, etc). This has been the real ongoing argument, trying to convince supporters of an existing superpower culture that they aren't really that big after all.
My personal opinion is that Americans should be in the game because of the uniqueness and significance of the culture, not because it was percieved as "largely spread". The game is about different cultures attempting to rise to dominance, so by default they all begin small. We should not judge historical civilizations on their size or influence.
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LordLynch64
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Illinios
Nov 2001
time: 05:16
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If you remove the Americans you have to remove the Germans, the Iriquios, the Aztecs, the Zulus, and any others I am forgetting on the same reasoning that you remove the Americans.
The German Nation-State has only exsisted for 200 some odd years they were a lose confederation of tribes during antiquity never really united. During the middle ages they were the Holy Roman Empire a lose group principalities only united in title. Up untill several wars with the French and other European Empires (my history escapes me) in the late 19th centurary did Prussia unify the German state we see today. Even today culturaly the Modern German State we see isn't culturally unified you go to Bavaria many people will say they are Bavarian before they say they are German. Fact of the matter is the German civilization is as young as the AMerican Civilazation. Most people don't see this because the geographical Germany wasn't covered in the mysterious shrowed the American continent was.
The Zulu Nation only exsisted 300 years, before being conquered and subjegated by the British Empire in the 19th Centuary. The Zulu Tribes did not have the Zulu culture untill Shaka came to power in the early part of their history.
The Aztecs only exsisted a few short centuaries in the copacity that we view as civilized. Then they were destroyed by the Spanish.
The Iriquios Were only in exsistance for a few short centuraies as a lose confederation of tribes. To fight off the new Invaders but soon they were subdued and placed on reservations.
My point is that Civilization is a broad term. We need to define what we mean when we say civilized. American culture is, contrary to what many people say on these boards, a broad sweeping economic highly influential culture. Yes it has been built on top of many other great civilizations and ideas but that is the nature of our world. Reality says that even now this game was developed in the United States it was originaly programed in English, which by the way to many uneducated out there in the US and other countries is American. I think we as a species need to realize the origins of all civilizations was set in motion along time ago in the primodieal stuff that gave us all life.
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Samourai Steven
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Tokyo
Nov 2001
time: 14:16
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Yeah, leave them. You can't just turn off the most powerful civilization today - and maybe of all history - just because they're recent. The French and English appeared about 1000 AD, the Chinese had many different dynasties and even periods of anarchy, Egypt was no longer independant under Turkish rule... The truth is that Civ can not really simulate a civilization, it's really a rough - if highly enjoyable one - approximation.
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chiren
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Germany
Nov 2001
time: 06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by LordLynch64
The German Nation-State has only exsisted for 200 some odd years they were a lose confederation of tribes during antiquity never really united. During the middle ages they were the Holy Roman Empire a lose group principalities only united in title. Up untill several wars with the French and other European Empires (my history escapes me) in the late 19th centurary did Prussia unify the German state we see today. Even today culturaly the Modern German State we see isn't culturally unified you go to Bavaria many people will say they are Bavarian before they say they are German. Fact of the matter is the German civilization is as young as the AMerican Civilazation. Most people don't see this because the geographical Germany wasn't covered in the mysterious shrowed the American continent was.
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the first german state (kingdom) was created before 1000 AD.
i think it was 981 but im not sure. in this "dark age" many wars raged over europe. so europe was divided often to many states (like they are in america). later on they joined into one state 1879 or so (+/- 2 years). so if you say that the germans exists only a few years you arent right. germany existed before but was divided in many federal states and it still consists of them.
so the german history (the european too) is looking back on many wars at there land. in america you never had two real wars there.
oh and it were german tribes who defeated the romans at the teutoburger wald (forest) - varus and his legion - at a time no one thought a roman army can be defeated...
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LordLynch64
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Illinios
Nov 2001
time: 05:16
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the first german state (kingdom) was created before 1000 AD.
i think it was 981 but im not sure. in this "dark age" many wars raged over europe. so europe was divided often to many states (like they are in america). later on they joined into one state 1879 or so (+/- 2 years). so if you say that the germans exists only a few years you arent right. germany existed before but was divided in many federal states and it still consists of them.
so the german history (the european too) is looking back on many wars at there land. in america you never had two real wars there.
oh and it were german tribes who defeated the romans at the teutoburger wald (forest) - varus and his legion - at a time no one thought a roman army can be defeated...
The United States of America is one country at peace or several states united under one flag. Your point above about how the first German state (kingdom) was created before 1000 AD is accurate but was it know as Germany or was it known as the Saxons or the Vandals or the Franks, what my point is that the German nation state we see today did not exsist untill 1879 like you stated. Which means your statement above about how the German states of lets say the Holy Roman empire is like the United States of today is WRONG. The Principalities of the Holy Roman Empire was never united it was filled with warring factions.
All the German tribes or sates was not unified untill, like you said 1879. Before that the geographical country we know as Germany was split between the different countries of Europe and was never really one unified German state untill 1879, when (I maybe wrong here) Otto Von Bismark, a Prussian, unified all the different German states under the German flag. So as you can see if we are refering to Civilization as a unified State Germany was clearly not in exsistance untill 1879. So if you want the Anglo-Saxson Tribes or the Vandals, or the Franks, or what ever represented thats fine but remember what our criteria is for a Civilization is.
MY POINT is that if you remove the American Civ from the game you must consider removing other civs that have different backgrounds but the same amount of history.
I take nothing away from the German peoples military prowness but I just question when you can actually call them civilized. Unfortunatly this is a matter of opinion so there is no clear winner in this discusion.
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Gromit
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A world far, far away from planet earth...
Nov 2001
time: 05:16
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quote:
Of course I am. In terms of a game like Civ, they were barbarian tribes not civilizations. Civ (1-3) is a game of managing cities. Societies that had no cities do not qualify to be treated as "civilizations" in such a game. |
Okay, since I have little knowledge of the Zulus other than Micheal Caine's campaign, I have no choice but to grudgingly concede on that one. But I do then have to ask, where did the Civ team get their city names from?
However, how can you possibly say the Iroquois do not qualify?
Extract from 'The Native Americans - An Illustrated History' Virgin Publishing 1994 (UK) - Turner Publishing Inc. 1993 (USA)
"The remarkable confederation of the Iroquois was founded sometime before the arrival of the European intruder. According to Iroquois tradition, there was once a time when all the tribes in the region were locked in bloody and endless war-fare.
Deganwidah, a holy man said to be born of a virgin mother, was the first to express horror and outrage at the senseless violence. He had a vision in which he saw the five nations drawn together, unified. The Iroquois, Deganwidah argued, must cease arguing with one another. They must unite under the sheltering branches of a symbolic 'Tree of Great Peace'. They must live in harmony and justice by forming a GOVERNMENT OF LAW."
As far as I have been led to believe, Government, confederations, law, treaties and so on, are all examples attributable only to civilized peoples and not at all to 'barbarians'.
If you are still not convinced I'll post the next paragraph describing how Hiawatha acted upon Deganwidah's words and formed the Iroquois Confederacy.
This book is a must read for ALL who want to know how 'civilized' the 'white' man (Europe and U.S.A.) has been in the past (not to mention the present).
Phew! Sorry for the long post but this is something of a sticking point for me.
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Jason
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Halifax, NS, Canada
Aug 1999
time: 05:16
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I'm not sure that romanticizing native americans is any better than underestimating them. Both ways are making silly moral judgements. I won't touch "do they belong in Civ" with an 80 foot pole. But that kind of writing is just armchair storytelling, the same as European history books of the same sort. Real scholarly inquiry into precolumbian non-central American native americans is difficult to research and not full of the kinds of false precision (quotes, names, recorded without a written record.)
Frankly, Civ is a historically flavoured game and not some sort of historical account. Clearly the mounted warrior should be changed for any sort of historical aptness, but the civ selection itself is not coherent anyway... "Babylonian, Persian..." Are we talking Sumerians, Assyrians, Parthians, what?
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chiren
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Germany
Nov 2001
time: 06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by LordLynch64
The Principalities of the Holy Roman Empire was never united it was filled with warring factions.
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but they all could talk together, live together and therefor they were more united than the americans and mexicans are today
quote:
All the German tribes or sates was not unified untill, like you said 1879. Before that the geographical country we know as Germany was split between the different countries of Europe and was never really one unified German state untill 1879, when (I maybe wrong here) Otto Von Bismark, a Prussian, unified all the different German states under the German flag. |
there are still many "tribes" in germany (prussian/preussen, saxons, bavarians ... )
i think its similar in the us, little bit difference, sure (rednecks, natives...)
but they are americans (now) and we are germans (now). but there is no real difference between the prussians or saxons or so on. sure we dont like if americans think that germany is munich or bavaria but hollywood does this...
and yes bismarck was born in potsdam or berlin (not sure) which belongs to prussia.
but before in "germany" there was a Kaiser (emperor - dont know exactly how you call it in english) where the russians had their czar. and there were many "german" countries which the Kaiser was elected from the mightiest. so he ruled over many countries as the "top statesman" - that was how feudalism/monarchy worked in middle-europe. that state was called the holy roman empire from time to time (the "german" influence reached into italy this time (yes "germany" covered more land than it does today)
later on we had some wired people trying this again but they failed like napoleon did...
flag:
the german flag how you know it today comes from a 16th-century revolution. when the peasants wanted to make their own country. the so called "Bundschuh" (color shoe ;-) ) at this time the 3 colors where used first time we know.
but the german colors were red-white-black until 1945. you know it stands for a bad "way of live and let live".
but these flags are much older than you may imagine...
quote:
MY POINT is that if you remove the American Civ from the game you must consider removing other civs that have different backgrounds but the same amount of history.
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if you see where it started you can remove nearly all civs (except for babylonians and egyptians - as they existed long before all others...
quote:
I take nothing away from the German peoples military prowness but I just question when you can actually call them civilized. Unfortunatly this is a matter of opinion so there is no clear winner in this discusion. |
there you may be right
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Gromit
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A world far, far away from planet earth...
Nov 2001
time: 05:16
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quote:
I'm not sure that romanticizing native americans is any better than underestimating them. Both ways are making silly moral judgements. I won't touch "do they belong in Civ" with an 80 foot pole. But that kind of writing is just armchair storytelling, the same as European history books of the same sort. Real scholarly inquiry into precolumbian non-central American native americans is difficult to research and not full of the kinds of false precision (quotes, names, recorded without a written record.) |
O.K., that's a fair point. Especially considering that their history is a kind of 'chinese whisper' hisory, for want of a better analogy.
It's possible I went a bit overboard. The point I meant to make (but kinda left behind), was that if the Americans deserve to be in (given that you could argue that they were an extension of sorts, of many European Civs and later the rest of the world), so then, do the Iroquois and the Zulus.
And as you quite rightly say, it is only a game.
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27-11-2001 14:53
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