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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:16
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In order to better facilitate discussion of an issue that came up in the Draft Dodging thread, I decided to make this thread. Which US wars do you think were justified, based upon whatever criteria you want?
One thing, though, for the Civil War, look at it from the North's perspective. Also, I am not including various "peacekeeping exercises" nor am I including the current "War on Terrorism".
Personally, I can only think of two - the American Revolution, and the wars against the Barbary Pirates (you know, "From the Halls of Montezuma, TO THE SHORES OF TRIPOLI" and all that).
I think an argument can also be made for some of the wars against the American Indians, but not all of them. When the Indians were raping and murdering US settlers, war was justified, for example.
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Rex Little
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I'll go with the same two you named, Dave. In addition, didn't the British attack us to start the war of 1812? You've probably taken American History rather more recently than I did, so correct me if I'm wrong.
WWII is a somewhat ambiguous case. The attack on Pearl Harbor justified our declaring war on Japan--unless you subscribe to the belief that FDR goaded and maneuvered Japan into that attack so that he could get the U.S. into the war despite the (pre-Pearl) strong anti-war public opinion. And once Germany declared war on us, we had little choice but to respond in kind. (Contrary to what you've been saying in the Draft Dodger thread, Dave, my understanding is that Germany declared war simply because we delclared on Japan, and they had an alliance. Certainly the timing of the declaration supports that explanation.)
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:16
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Rex, you are correct re: the reason Germany declared war, my point, though, is that due to US action it was, strictly speaking, justified.
I think you will concede, though, that neither declaration would have been forthcoming (by either Japan or Germany) if FDR had not butted into the conflicts where no one wanted him.
However, in the War of 1812 I would say that NORMALLY it would be justified due to impressment, however, other factors, such as the presence of war hawks looking for an excuse for war and trying to avoid negotiation makes the war unjustifiable - without the hawks in Congress, probably more time would have been spent on negotiation, which would have given the US ample time to find out that the British made some important concessions. It's certainly a toss-up on the War of 1812, though, in my opinion.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:16
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One thing I am genuinely curious about is why 2 people have voted against the Barbary Pirates war? I might be lacking information about it, maybe you 2 could enlighten me??
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:16
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Basically a group of North African Muslim nations went to war against the US, sunk or captured US merchant vessels, took hostages in places such as Tripoli, and the war primarily consisted of a naval blockade and naval war of the Barbary Powers and an overland march across North Africa by less than a dozen US Marines and some native allies.
That's my (albeit limited) knowledge of the war, pretty much. Nothing too objectionable there, that I can see.
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Hoek
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of knock-you-off-your-ass chili
Jan 1970
time: 00:16
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How was the Barbary War more justifiable than the war of 1812? In the war of 1812, the British clearly pushed us to a point that we could no longer tolerate. They clearly violated our sovereignty.
The Indian Wars were unjustified, no matter how you look at it. When the Indians were raping white women, it was because the whites were settling on their land
Mexican War was unjustified for the same reasons
Civil War was justified, because this is a federal system, whether the south liked it or not. Such a broach of the constitution could not be allowed to stand. Lets not forget that the reason the south seceeded was that they wanted to expand slavery to other territories, not to maintain their own slavery. Even though slavery was not the direct reason we fought the war, it very well could have been grounds for war.
Spanish-American War: no justification
World War I: I'm not sure about this one. I don't think that there was any "good guy" in this war. It was war for the sake of war, I think.
World War II: Both Nazi Germany and Japan posed a clear threat to the United States. The U.S. would have had to fight them sooner or later, and it would have been better had we started sooner.
Korean War: the North Koreans violated the UN charter by invading another country. It was a mistake, however, to try to re-unify the country
Vietnam: Eisenhower could have crushed communism here easily by supporting Vietnamese independence. FDR held out as long as he did probably to bring an end to colonialism. If Eisenhower realized that the Vietnamese were more interested in Nationalism than Communism, it would have saved everyone the headache that was Vietnam.
Gulf War: I voted for this, but I think that the U.S. did it for the wrong reasons. Our mission was to free Kuwait, but it should have been to take out Sadaam. He has proven himself to be an extremely dangerous man.
Other wars that we fought but you didn't mention: French Naval War: justified for same reasons Barbary War and war of 1812 are
Philippino war: totally unjustified, probably the least justified of all the undertakings of the U.S. military
Panama Invasion: I actually think that this was reasonable. The canal was our property, and our job to protect.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:16
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Hoek, regarding Panama, Philippines, etc., I was including the most major wars...
My responses, though:
I've already addressed War of 1812.
Regarding the Indian Wars, I dispute the fact that the Indians owned the land, because they never claimed one could own land.
The Civil War - secession was not a broach of the Constitution. Nowhere is secession prohibited, nor is federal resistance to secession allowed.
WW2 - rather than go into this, read my thread on draft dodging...I will say, though, that it was unjustified because FDR pushed us into it and committed acts of war against Germany.
Korea - the UN Charter is not adequate reason to go to war. The UN Charter is, IMO, bullshit.
Gulf War - really none of our business.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:16
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An oversight on my part, I apologize...I can certainly see where you are coming from one "none", even if I disagree.
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:16
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Independence - Justified.
Barbary War - Justified.
War of 1812 - Unjustified. AFAIK, the primary battles in this war were fought against the Amerindians, and those were certainly wrong.
Mexican War - Unjustified. It's a simple case of aggression.
Civil War - Unjustified. The Constitution doesn't prohibit secession.
War against Amerindians - Unjustified. They did own the land, even if they didn't "claim" it by European standards. To suggest otherwise is bullcrap.
WW I - Unjustified. We had no business being involved in a war of nationalism.
WW II - Justified. The Japanese attacked us, and the Germans declared war on us. And both regimes were far more atrocious than ours.
Korean War - Unjustified. We had no business aiding one side in a civil war.
Viet Nam War - Unjustified. See Korean War, except the South Vietnamese people did not support us.
Gulf War - Unjustified. The Iraqi government wasn't much worse than the Kuwaiti government, so we had no business trying to put it back in power.
quote:
Hoek, regarding Panama, Philippines, etc., I was including the most major wars... |
You say the War agains the Barbary Pirates is a major war, but the Philippines isn't? A war where a quarter million (conservatively) civilans died, where widescale concentration camps were used, isn't major, but a pidly little naval war is? 
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Rogan Josh
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We were hearing not so long ago about how the US navy was turning back Canadian ships that were transporting goods to Cuba. As a matter of interest, if the Canadians had continued, would the US have fired on them?
If they had, would it be justified for Canada to declare war on the US?
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28-11-2001 11:12
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