29-11-2001 02:57									#1
	Armies, how they work? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I have few questions about armies.

1. What is attack rating of army?
-For example if I have 1 spearman, 1 archer and one horseman in army. Does it have Attack 1 (worst of 3), 2 (Best of 3) or 1,33 (Avarage of 3) or something else?

2. What is defense rating of army?
-For example if I have 1 spearman, 1 archer and one horseman in army. Does it have Defend 1 (worst of 3), 2 (Best of 3) or 1,33 (Avarage of 3) or something else?

3. How fast army heals with/without barracks?
- I think that 3 unit army heals 3 hp/turn regardles of barracks but I am not quite sure, can anyone confirm?

4. What is speed of army?
-I am pretty sure speed is always that of slowest unit. Confirm?

5 Can army with only tanks attack multiple times?
- I am pretty sure armies can attack only once in turn, no matter how many times units in it can attack. Confirm?

	29-11-2001 03:54									#2
	Put an end to popups!

Each unit in an army attacks and defends with its own native attack/defense rating, however:
The unit will fight only until it's down to one 1hp, and then that unit will withdraw, and the next unit in the army will step up to attack or defend.

If hard-pressed, when every unit is down to 1hp, and the army is still attacking/under attack, it'll cycle back through and the units will fight again, this time, getting killed off when they lose that last HP. If they all die, the army is lost.

In my experience, armies in the field heal 3 HP a turn, but the one time I had an army resting in a city with a barracks, it was ready to rock the next turnn (that may have been cos it hadn't taken much damage....couldn't say for sure there!)

Army speed = speed of the slowest unit.

Units with Blitz attacks (tanks) LOSE this abililty when placed in an army, so you're generally better off putting infantry based troops in an army, and letting your mobile units come in individually in support.

-=Vel=-

	29-11-2001 04:17									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

Thanks a lot for good answer.

Seems that armies are pretty much useless then...

Maybe best use is to have armies of 3 defencive units as army in places where you want to have huge defence.

Making offensive armies seems like very bad idea, since you can attack only once with them where as with 3 separate units you can attack 3 times.

	29-11-2001 05:28									#4
	Remove this text

Before tanks/panzers become available, armies can be useful on offense. However, there are so many drawbacks to them (can't upgrade units in armies, can't detach units from armies, no blitz capability with tanks/panzers) they lose most of their appeal. They take up all the space of the units inside plus the army itself in transports.

The leaders are, I'm now convinced, best used to rush wonders rather than form armies.

	30-11-2001 14:22									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

the one thing that disapoints me the most about armies is the fact that armies are SO expensive...i mean 400 shields? that is a little bit too steep for me, especially when if you do add four units to an army that they go from having a possible 12 attacks per turn (modern armor), all the way down to one attack per turn, even against a four unit army of mech infantry, seven individual modern armor units are better than four modern armor units in an army because when the modern armor units attack once they start losing to the mech infantry they will retreat...so in the long run you will lose fewer modern armor units when they are not in an army

armies are only good on defense then, except the cost associated with building an army totally disrupts the increases in overall combat effectivness, meaning that under virtually all circumstances that the player will be better off just building more units instead of building an army, plus armies are hard to get except for all but the most blood-thirsty players

so it looks like firaxis needs to give this very heralded part of Civ3 another look, because if they don't i bet that armies will have been relegated to the trash bin of civ3 strategies

and gfrazieror is right, if you get a leader, better to use it on building a wonder instead of an army

	30-11-2001 15:36									#6
	ah-ha! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

but, if you build an army, get a victory, you can then build heroic epics, and get even more leaders, and rush even more wonders later.

I haven't tried it, but I think that's the only reason.

well, maybe having a super-tough defensive unit.

ER

	30-11-2001 19:10									#7
	My views on armies Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Simpy put they are very very effective.

Use your first leader to make an army, so you can make the heroic epic, and get more leaders. Any subsequent leaders should be saved to rush good wonders. Build the military academy when you can, then just devote that city to producing armies, it will pay off in the long run if you are fighting alot.

Armies are very very effective on the defense. Put them into hotly contested cities in a war zone, and you WILL keep that city.

Offensively I use them mainly to guard my vulnerable bombardment units, and to give a stable base to my advancing offensive units.

Its true that you cannot upgrade units in armies, but an army of riflemen is more effective defensively than 3 infantry units would be. I've also noticed that the computer has a tendancy to "back off" from an army rather than attacking it at all.

	30-11-2001 23:42									#8
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Has anyone figured out exactly how much more likely one is to get a leader out of a battle with the Heroic Epic than without?

From the manual, if you're militaristic or have Sun Tsu, you've got a better chance of producing elite units, therefore a better chance of producing leaders. But is the Heroic Epic really that significant? I haven't noticed that great a difference...I've played games (as the Germans...militarists) and without Sun Tsu I got more leaders (both cases had HE) than with.

It seems to be a rarity in either case.

There are, of course, cultural reasons to have those small wonders built, aside from their direct utility, so it seems to make sense to use that first leader to build an army that can win a battle for those small wonders to become available. But after that, it's time to rush with a leader in the van.

	30-11-2001 23:56									#9
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In the game I'm Playing (militaristic, and with the war academy)
I've already gotten 8-9 leaders.

My first few leaders went to wonders. Duh!!

But then I got a leader and had no wonders to build. I kept him hanging around for a future wonder and didn't get another leader. (even though I think I remember getting one when I already had one in a previous game.) After almost 100 elite attacks, still no new leaders.

So I said what the heck, and made an army for a normandy like invasion of Germany. I knew the second I landed that I would be facing 50 or so Panzers. So I build an army of elite mech infantry.
Within the first few elite combats, another leader popped. (I had just finished heroic epic.)

I kept him around and didn't get any new leaders. Used it to build a wonder and bang within 20 or so elite attacks another leader.

In summary, I do believe that (militaristic and having the war academy) helps because of the increased sheer volumn of elite attacks. (starting at vet and promotions)
People that whine about never getting leaders after a few dozen elite attacks are just not attacking enough. I have done hundreds and hundreds and as a result have had many leaders.
And I think having one unused does have some impact.

RAH

	30-11-2001 23:56									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

i dont get alot of leaders too...the hero epic did give me one more leader late in a game...i don't build many armies though...if you get one real early it might be beneficial to build an army ...if you plan to war4ever....

ancient armies while effective have a short shelf life

	01-12-2001 00:15									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Yes ancient armies don't have much value and only decreases the number of attacks. I did build an army of elite samuri in my last game, which was very amusing. The ai couldn't get out of it's way fast enough. But yes even that was too short of effective shelf life.

They don't help till the planet is covered in railroads and you know any invasion will be meet by everything they have that they can throw at you. That one army of elite mech infantry place on the mountain (can't believe they let you unload on a mountain) cost the germans over 25 panzers to defeat, leaving the tanks that I unloaded a chance to do some damage.
Armies will also attract bombardment damange. I'd rather have my army under constant bombardment then all the other units in the stack being nicked which reduces their attacking effectiveness.

So while armies are generally worthless, late in the game they can be very usefull. My current game, I think I've got 4 currently roaming, and have had 2 destroyed, but at great great expense to Germany and France. Great to have a non-army unit in the same stack and just pilage at will, (can't believe an army can't pillage)

Rich