29-11-2001 04:18									#1
	Making Money from bankrupt AI Suffering from ads?

This is really a one shot experience of mine, so I'm hoping the rest of the community can chime in with their own experiences/ tests to see if this really is what I think it is.


I've been exporting coal to the Russians for eons, the 20 turn limit has expired, neither party has cancelled (i simply forgot )
Then, in a greedy turn, I renegotiated a couple of my contracts with the other civs, pushing my per turn income to 362 gold. Then, I checked the Active treaties with the Russians, and noted I was making 61 gold per tern off of them, and they currently have 0 gold in the bank, a good sign they are running low on cash. When I attempted to renegotiated the contract by asking them what they would want to pay for my coal, Catherine tells me it is currently not possible to negotiate or something of that nature, and the transcation (my coal for their 61 gold) was immediately removed from the Acitve list even when I didn't cancel the deal. -remember, I was in the "proposal" phase where you get to add or subtract payments/offers and see if its acceptble or not. And my gold/per turn dropped from 362 to 302. So I know the system had subtracted the deal from the table.

After the deal disappeared, I left the screen and went back to the starting Russian diplomacy screen, and asked catherine if she wanted to trade coal, she gave me a similar response, saying a deal is currently not possible.

So my observation is, I've been earning 61 gold (no small change) from the Russians all this time and the time it cancelled was when I went in to renegotiate. In theory, I could let that thing go on forever and they'd pay me 61 gold each turn, even if their treasury is at 0 gold.

Is this
a) a Cheat?
b) a bug
c) can the AI "print money?" or are they selling off improvements to pay for the deal?

	29-11-2001 06:45									#2
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that's an interesting point... you would imagine that the AI would of canceled after 20 turns, or when it had no more money - much like how you can loose a resource you're importing if the AI looses that resource.

Perhaps they were managing to make that extra 61 gold per turn explicitly for the coal, but that wouldnt explain why the russians did not accept a new deal. Maybe the fact that you canceled it made them mad? However if you would of renogotiated at 30 gold per turn perhaps it would of been accepted. I got a feeling though it would of also been rejected or along the lines of "they will probably be insulted by this deal".

If the AI can in fact print money, this would contradict what firaxis told the community, where the cheating is only happening on a production bonus level, and even then the AI will not cheat under monarch level.

Having good faith in the overall game mechanics, I'd say this is a bug. Remember that you can also extort the AI out of millions of gold per turn too...

	29-11-2001 11:26									#3
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Sounds like a variation on the millions of gold bug. If you haven't run into it, you can extort millions of gold per turn from weak civs.

	29-11-2001 21:35									#4
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They could have easily managed it through slider control. In large empires a small 10% change would cover it. You never know. But I have had some civs give me a lump sum that would drain their treasury and include a lump sum.

RAH

	29-11-2001 23:19									#5
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IIRC there is a coal bug floating around it is on the list for the patch.....

	30-11-2001 08:05									#6
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There might be a simple solution here, the price of your coal may have gone up. If you stop and then start the deal, your coal might be worth something like 200 per turn, and she wasn't willing to pay even half of that, so she didn't even offer (it would have 'insulted' you ).

Did you try to explicitly offer the coal for 61 gold (or less) per turn, without asking her what she'd give you for it?

The other possibility that comes to my mind is that as soon as she got her 61 gold per turn back at the end of your first deal, she changed her science slider to increase research. This leaves her with no gold to trade with, and as we all know they won't restructure their economic base to free up gold for trades.

	30-11-2001 15:50									#7
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I've noticed the phenomenon too. Too good to cancel, too bad to continue?

However, someones, if I try to re-offer, i can't even OFFER them a resource. It's like they found it domestically, or have another trade deal with someone else.

my theory is that maybe the AI isn't too good about remember to cancel their import deals

ER

	30-11-2001 20:53									#8
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AI doesn't cancel existing Strategtic Resouces deals. Even if they get the resouce later on themselves..Just another odd quirk.

	01-12-2001 22:37									#9
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In the one full game I have completed the AI cancelled EVERY SINGLE resource or luxery trade with me after twenty turns in what seemed to be an automatic message . In only one case would they even consider a renegotiation at a higher price to me. So we seem to have different experiences. I am glad to hear that they do not always do that.

	01-12-2001 23:50									#10
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Could that be that AI cancels resources/luxuries trades in an attempt to get a better deal? Did anyone notice any correspondence between the change of your and AI civ comparative standing ("like your power compared to their" changes) and their willingness to cancel/renegotiate trades?

	02-12-2001 18:15									#11
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I had something similar expirience, but a little different.

I was selling Iron to Germans for 20 gold.
But later then dicovered another deposit of Iron.

They didn't cancel our Iron agreement (20 turns passed).
Why? Bug?

Still, if I want to renegotate, they refuse Iron (which is OK).

Also, if they run low on gold (negative income), they also don't cancel agreement. But if you want to renegotate they DO (your case).

	03-12-2001 00:40									#12
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quote: Is this a) a Cheat? b) a bug

Yes. In Regent, I was able to sell the Germans a Tech for their entire treasury & 50+gold/turn... in addition I was able to add to the deal a FREE Embargo against the French. I was at war with the French (6th in score), the Germans were not. After the 20 turns, the Germans did NOT cancel the deal. They kept paying me 50+gold/turn to keep an embargo against the French who they were not at war with! The Germans were in "Gracious" terms with me, but that is no reason to pay me 50+gold/turn for an embargo against someone they have never been to war with. 10 turns later they finally canceled the deal. 500 gold from a bankrupt AI Civ is more than being "Gracious"... it's stupid.

AI Civs pay FAR too gold for Techs, especially in the Industrial Age & Modern Age (where it seems the least playtesting was done)... if I wasn't the only wealthy Civ among bankrupt Civs it wouldn't be a bug/cheat... but I am. I do NOT even Tech-Broker (buy a tech then sell it), I only sell Techs I research & I can make all/most the other AI Civs broke...

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=36028

Hopefully the patch will fix this.

	03-12-2001 23:25									#13
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AI's pay too much for techs? huh?

if i want to buy a tech from the ai, say it costs me 1040 gold. Now if i try to turn around and sell it back, most of them rarely even give me half that.

This is in my experience, and experiences can differ. But the ai almowt never pays me too much for a tech.

	04-12-2001 00:39									#14
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Yup, and prices go down as more civs know the tech. I'm quite sure this is the case as it's happened quite a few times to me when I buy/sell techs.

	04-12-2001 01:13									#15
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The AI is just dumb ... and I really wish Firaxis would consider doing something with it.

The biggest problem is a lack of memory.

Case in point:

French offer to buy Technology A off me for World Map, some gold and a smack upside the head.

I think that I can do better, so I clear the table and ask them what they'd give for Technology A.

"We regret we cannot reach an agreement at this time."

WHAT? You just approached me and offered some gold!

Okay, me thinks, I reset the offer to what it was ... but they are insulted.

So, did they just go off the deal in the space of 5 seconds, or does this game simply not remember anything?

I go with the latter ... negotiations, diplomacy ... all of this is purely random. Oh, the prices may be based on some form of loose formula ... but everything else is random.

And it is very, very weak. I would have thought that all of these years since Civ1, we'd have a much better diplomacy/AI engine by now.

	04-12-2001 02:34									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Kc7mxo AI's pay too much for techs? huh?if i want to buy a tech from the ai, say it costs me 1040 gold. Now if i try to turn around and sell it back, most of them rarely even give me half that.

Problem with that is there are 14 other AI Civs you can sell it to! If the AI wanted to sell that Tech to you why didn't it sell it to the other 14 AI Civs before you? That's stupid. Would you sell a tech to only 1 AI Civ so that 1 AI Civ could sell it to the other 14? No, neither should the AI... unless maybe you're on Chieftain.

quote: But the ai almowt never pays me too much for a tech.

quote: Yup, and prices go down as more civs know the tech. I'm quite sure this is the case as it's happened quite a few times to me when I buy/sell techs.

Prices do go down, but not at the 50% rate each time some claim. You sell your tech to the richest & strongest AI Civs 1st & you can make them bankrupt preventing them from any rush building or army expansion. No AI Civ should sell it's soul (treasury & all future income for the next 20turns) for just 1 Tech... but they often do. Worse is they will do it for dead-end techs for which the Wonder has already been built!

quote: French offer to buy Technology A off me for World Map, some gold and a smack upside the head. I think that I can do better, so I clear the table and ask them what they'd give for Technology A. "We regret we cannot reach an agreement at this time." WHAT? You just approached me and offered some gold! Okay, me thinks, I reset the offer to what it was ... but they are insulted. So, did they just go off the deal in the space of 5 seconds, or does this game simply not remember anything?

Yes, this is a problem. It's almost as if you're talking to 2 different AI Civs. Here's another to try... when you are at war with a weaker AI Civ threaten your troops are coming when asking for peace. In my experience, the weaker AI Civ laughs at your threats or offers only a flat Peace agreement... when you go to 'lets make a deal'... you get plenty of tribute. Again seems like 2 different AI Civs.

	04-12-2001 03:01									#17
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The biggest problem is that AI diplomacy is passive.

AI should do this:
I discovered a tech.
Should I sell it:
1) yes - then I should sell to many players in same time
2) no - then I should NOT sell it to ANYONE

So if AI want to sell tech to player, that should be his offer, not your proposal (like it is now). That way he will sell it to several other AI.

I think that this could be done in patch.
We just need to ask Firaxis...

...and maybe we get better diplo-AI in second patch (to late for first)

	04-12-2001 09:58									#18
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quote: Originally posted by wisecat Could that be that AI cancels resources/luxuries trades in an attempt to get a better deal? Did anyone notice any correspondence between the change of your and AI civ comparative standing ("like your power compared to their" changes) and their willingness to cancel/renegotiate trades?

The AI(for me) frequently cancels deals where I am paying X gold per turn for a luxury when it expires, but will make the same deal again with X being a few gold higher, so yes, the reason it cancels is because it thinks it can get a better deal. Sometimes it doesn't cancel, presumably because it thinks its getting the better end of the deal.

Someone mentioned that the ai might be buggy because it doesn't cancel resource deals when they get their own source. This may be because they have a deal that gives the extra of the resource they have to another civ for more than they pay you for it