29-11-2001 12:59									#1
	CIV3 how it should be Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

It seems that my handle has been lost, goodbye boney, longlive boney1, this will be my third registration here. The first I forgot both my handle and password. I tried to change my e-mail for boney, but could not join any forum. so here is boney1.


So it seems that there are things that need to be addressed in civ3. The game is okay and just as addictive as civ2, ctp, etc etc. But is it what we were really looking for. In my opinion there are many ways to improve the game, most of them were either in civ2 or ctp. It does seem to me that the designers specifically chose to have a clean break from civ2 and totally ignore anything from ctp, understandable seeing that it is a competitor.

Whilst I cannot remember all the good and bad points of civ3 I will try to list some of them. This is not about bugs either, which should be fixed in a patch. Also this a very personal point of view about what I think, I am sure that many will seriously disagree with some things.

GOOD POINTS
CULTURE inclusion is good and adds depth.

AI is okay (compared to other civ games it is excellent)

SIMPLIFICATION. The way the game has been simplified makes it easier for new players to get into it (many would probably think this is bad)

HEROES are an innovative if not strange concept

RESARCH has been made more difficult, gives the AI more chance

DIPLOMACY is good but it could still be improved

LUXURIES giving happiness is good

RESOURCES and keeping your civ supplied is good

Bad points
CIVILIZATIONS. Lack of civs, I think there should have been more civs to choose from

LEADERS. I would also like to choose my own name, or have a choice of leaders. Anyway Joan of Arc was never any more than a heroic figure, Napoleon should have been the leader

PLANES. Bring back planes as ?real? units

BOMBARD can kill armies, just look at the Taliban. Maybe units in cities or in mountains could survive.

SHIPS can also shoot down planes, as well as visa versa, see falklands

HELICOPTERS have become toothless, and virtually redundant. With rail and airports only island games with remote civs can use helicopters, but no motorized units can be moved

WORKERS are a hassle, and should at least be upgradeable. Bring back engineers, my 20th century workers have improved with education and modern tools

COMBAT is weak

UNITS. Having units grouped together in armies saves a lot of shifting

SPIES. The spy system is unworkable, does anyone use spies? Only if they have loads of money

AGRICULTURE has been simplified. Agricultural improvement should bring advanced farms. Crop rotation and insecticides made great improvements to farm yields as shown in civ2

MINES have been simplified, they should also be upgradeable,

FOREIGN MINISTRY needs improving. Something should be done so that you can know who is at war with who etc etc. If I have a mutual defence agreement with a civ I sometimes forget who they are at war with and I make peace only to get a bad rep. Did the foreign minister not realize that there are sometimes more than 8 civs

ARMIES are slow and un-upgradable, give them the same attack options as tanks

WONDER MOVIES. What happened to the wonder movies, I kinda liked them and was looking forward to the new ones. They could at least have left us with old ones and just made new ones for the few new wonders

CORRUPTION I can live with but it is really OTT, maybe cities with a wonder could have less corruption, and have some influence on cities nearby

EMBASSIES too easy to build and not powerful enough. If we have embassies we should know more info about other civs, such as what they are researching, their opinions of us, etc etc

TRADE needs improving, there should be more luxury resources, with maybe 9 needed to get your full quota of happy faces, this will lead to more trade.

GOVERNMENTS. Choice of governments is poor, simplified, good for new players. Lets have more choice

HEROES rush buying wonders brings a large element of luck to the game. It also forces peaceful players into fighting in order to get a hero that can build their wonder. Some rethinking of the hero concept is needed, it adds to the fun and should not be taken out entirely.

I have probably missed something here. These are all things that in my opinion should improve the game. I have not mentioned any bugs as these should be dealt with in the patch. Most of the things here are already in either civ2 or ctp, it seems that some of the good things in civ2 have been taken out and some of the good things in ctp have been ignored. I would like to know if any of the software designers have played any of the civ games or bothered to read the civ3 forum here.

The game is playable but could be vastly improved into the ultimate civ game, it seems to me that they have tried to make things a lot simpler, which is not what most civvers wanted. Or is it?

Last edited by boney1 on 29-11-2001 at 13:06

	29-11-2001 13:11									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

It seems to me they made the conscious decision to appeal to a mass (and easily pleased) audience. Apparently they feel that the hardcore gamer and the casual gamer are simply too far apart to both share enjoyment of the same game. Personally, I think you should raise your fans upwards with quality and challenge and not dumb your games downward with tedium and frustration disguised as 'simplicity.'

But that's how it went.

	29-11-2001 13:27									#3
	Tired of ads?

you can choose your own name btw. all good points though. and heros rush building wonders .

	29-11-2001 17:29									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Civ3 "how it should be" for me is a lot closer to something like Civilization Evolution (www.c-evo.org) than Firaxis' attempt.

	29-11-2001 18:59									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

After playing a few times some people have the idea their judgement has now been vindicated to Godlike status, or so it seems.

Why is personal preference so hard to distinguish from objective standard?

I fully support reports on game aspects (how combat works), bugs (the air superiority) and even personal opinion on gameplay, but please attempt to keep them separated. "How civ3 should be" is an assuming title for a post about your own (dis)likes. It also only serves as another place where the doomsayers can come in and raise their post count, followed by the glorypreachers to do same thing.