29-11-2001 23:50									#1
	barbarians not strong enough? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Warriors and horsemen (and galleys)... that's all they ever achieve. I know you can edit what units barbarians can generate with the editor, but I think it's just a little to limiting no?

In the early ages, it makes sense to just see those kind of primitive units. However in later ages, say you go out and conquer (or the AI for that matter) and decides to simply raze the cities, and I've seen it happen. What results is large unoccupied land. Sure it might be settled eventually (not always as the AI later on will just set up colonies in the unocupied land), but barbarians do appear.

The dissapointment? It's 1900 ad and barbarian camps appear with warriors and horsemen, and galleys off the coast. What ever happened to those restless civ2 tribes of musketmen and cavalry.

Hey tanks would even be fun to see as barbarians. Imagine a horde of tanks coming your way due to unchecked barbarian growth. Scary

As it stands, barbarians can only be assigned 3 units.. basic, advanced and sea (warrior horsemen and galley). Anyone think it's possible to assign these by ages instead? I'm guessing though that without event support it won't be possible (i.e: if new age then barbarian units change from a to b)

well i guess this can be a rant, or a wish, because without direct firaxis addition, or without an event trigger available in the editor, this won't really be possible. I guess we could make it so musketmen appear right off the bat at 4000bc, but that would kind of extremly hard

	30-11-2001 00:04									#2
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Bah. They annoyed me in CivII...I like it better this way. It's easier to stamp them out and herd them off to a distant penal colony. Maybe one day they can form their own country and then I can invade and raze THEIR cities. Now THAT would be fun.

	30-11-2001 02:44									#3
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hmmmmm.....

I think the appearance of barbarians should decrease as the ages go on ... say, take the starting rate (based on the game setup for barbarian incursion) and have it work at

ANCIENT : 100%
MIDDLE AGES : 66%
INDUSTRIAL AGE : 33%
MODERN TIMES : 0%

I mean, do you barbarians nowadays? I don't ... at least, not in the sense that we know by looking back at history. Example: not all of Canada is constantly in view but barbarians don't suddenly just 'pop up' and run around pillaging farms.

Thats just my opinion though

Cheers!
~Alex

	30-11-2001 04:05									#4
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maybe the barbarians were meant to be just a minor annoyance and not a big pain in the *** this time around

	30-11-2001 04:10									#5
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either way i like them better in civ3 since i can actually use them to my advantage this time(training soldiers) while in civ2 you basically didnt need veterans

	30-11-2001 04:30									#6
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quote: Originally posted by raiseupx either way i like them better in civ3 since i can actually use them to my advantage this time(training soldiers) while in civ2 you basically didnt need veterans

I agree with this totally ... but to me, its another reason why they shouldn't appear in the future. Do you honestly think your tanks will become veterans by running over dudes with loin cloths and stone axes?

Cheers!
~Alex

	30-11-2001 04:39									#7
	Got spare money?

i imagine it would greatly depend on a player's playing style. I for one enjoy setting barbarian activity to random, making it a surprise for every game. I like the extra challenge. Ok so I could play on deity, but it's not the same type of extra stick in the wheel I'm talking about.

As for barbarian activity decreasing over time, I don't know if I want that. The barbarian appearances are fine as it is already, decreasing it would only make the game that much easier.

And about canada..... well we really don't know exactly what's happening in all those empty tracks of land now do we. It's not the canadian government would let everyone know about those vast armies of inuits who drill for oil and keep the canadian economy rolling - now would they?

Besides, does the Oka incident ring a bell?

There's more "realistic" examples I'm sure, but this is a game, and it would be good to see some tougher barbarians later on. Sending out your tanks to get elite status against warriors doesn't feel all that rewarding.. same goes for battleships sinking those galleys, kind of rediculous (even worse when its the other way around )

	30-11-2001 04:52									#8
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quote: Originally posted by smellymummy And about canada..... well we really don't know exactly what's happening in all those empty tracks of land now do we. It's not the canadian government would let everyone know about those vast armies of inuits who drill for oil and keep the canadian economy rolling - now would they? Besides, does the Oka incident ring a bell?

Don't worry, you're talking to a canadian - i don't know how much you know, but if you let anything out about the polar bear brigade and moose tactical units, i'll find OUT where you live !!!

And Oka wasn't barbarian - it was civil disorder. Its not like they suddenly came out of nowhere, they were always there (after all, we conquered them). More precisely, it was civil disorder caused by our conquer of their cities - like a delayed resistance...

But don't get me started on 'native' american issues ...

Cheers!
~Alex

	30-11-2001 06:37									#9
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modern barbarians would be terrorists and split states with higher tech weapons .

	30-11-2001 11:35									#10
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quote: Originally posted by ThaddeusAlexander And Oka wasn't barbarian - it was civil disorder. Its not like they suddenly came out of nowhere, they were always there (after all, we conquered them). More precisely, it was civil disorder caused by our conquer of their cities - like a delayed resistance...

A very long delayed resistance - maybe. Look at the barbarian camps in civ3, they just pop out of nowhere. Couldn't we imagine that in fact all those little barbarian people are simply abstracted per square tile? Just like in civ3 where the camps will appear at the edges of the known empires, oka did resemble that no? Yes they were there, but then out of nowhere they show up. They did have to bring in the military afterall. Civil disorders are usually taken care by police officers/local authorities. Besides, it's not like Oka is smack in the middle of canadian civilization; I used to live around there, and it's rather deserted compared to other places in the PQ.

I don't want to start you on the native american issue, that's better off left to another board; but hey we can debate realistic examples for weeks and we'll end up nowhere asides from figuring out who knows more about what and when.

Im refering to the game, and I miss the advanced barbarians. Be it guerillas, rebels, criminals, or wild hordes of mongolians, I'd like them to be a bit more advanced. It's just silly to see (as put above) warriors in loin cloths waving axes in the 20th century

Scripted events is whats needed to add some extra edge and wanted features many people miss - and I want to see some advanced barbarians