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barefootbadass
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MP will be fine theoretically, I think. Resources are a concern, strategic resources will probably only be traded for excess strategic resources of similar importance. This will make early expansion and wars to gain territory that has potential resources very important, and for the people that stick with it, make the game far from any kind of cim city type game. People will also learn to 'hang tough' when resources are scarce. There are some key units to this that anyone can build like artillery and riflemen. Of course, many people will give up on MP the first time they have problems with resources in a game. But overall, I think it makes the game FAR more interesting. You can have situations where one weak civ pays off a more powerful one to spare them for a little longer(vassal states  but with real people) for example.
Specially designed maps might be needed, I don't think 1 civ per island kind of thing would be good, but generally maps could be made to increase the playability. Maybe when MP approaches this site could have a team of 'volunteer mappers' to work on a library of maps that would work fairly well and be likely to give all civs a potshot at getting the necessary resources.
Of course now the 40 turn max on research is there so people can 'suck a little more' and there will be a slightly larger gap. I like the science system as it is, although, some of the industrial techs that give you nothing are rather annoying.
Civ 2 had many concerns about MP, turns taking too long, people giving up as soon as they start losing(which did happen, to the people that didn't have patience for it), but also revitalized the game by forcing those that stuck with it to devise new strategies. One thing that I don't see how can work with civ 3 is PBEM, since diplomacy requires more interaction now.
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barefootbadass
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Also, about people having disadvantages for lack of resources, it may not be as bad as you think. Civ 2 had similar problems with random maps. Most MP games I played had one person really get a bad starting position that practically doomed them barring extenuating circumstances(like one player only having a small peninsula with jungle but he survives because his neighbor gets in a 3 front war or something).
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Heliodorus
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Colorado
Nov 2001
time: 22:16
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Still there is this "kvetching" about how bad Civ3 is, particularly with the well-expressed notion that Civ3 is punishes excellent play and rewards mediocre play.
If you share that notion that it is so, then I assert that you don't enjoy the challenge that this system offers. It is not despite this system that I enjoy Civ3, and look forward to MP, it is BECAUSE of it.
I suspect that some of the kvetchers aren't enjoying having to rethink preconceived notions of what Civ2 was (and what Civ3 was "supposed" to be in their minds).
I LOVE the new equality impositions. It's made the ancient era something you can actually fight wars in. It's reduced the mindless pursuit of ICS, and it's tethered all players so that imposing global domination BY TECHNOLOGY is more difficult.
The problem I think the kvetchers are having is that they aren't adjusting well to being forced into being MORTAL compared to the AI, and not being able to ignore the AI once a small research lead is completed.
Where one door closes, another door opens.... Civ3 has great diplomacy options IMHO. Moreover, the imposition of this curve of equality creates for MP scenarios some really great possibilities for diplomacy there, as well. Ever research railroad and realize you don't have coal? Happened to me, and in that instant I realized how great CIV3's potential is. I had to beg and borrow to get a coal supply. I had to end war with two powers and then suck up to another that had me trade embargoed because I couldn't invade across an ocean with any chance of success.... While I was on the matter, I traded railroad around to allies in hopes they would FIND a coal deposit and later develop it for trade with me. My entire aim for victory was changed, and I had to adapt to the opportunities at hand.
Look, most of you out there play with cookie-cutter strategies to victory (or did, in CTP2 et al). Now things are different. You'll have to be able to read the game you are playing, not exploit things that always work regardless of the specific map, nationality, etc. I for certain RELISH the idea. I'm going to have to learn how to play in 2nd, 3rd, 4th place.... And when I'm in first, I'm going to have to find ways to play against people who might in fact be better than me playing without the lead - ganging up on me or whatnot.
Civ3 is a great game. That's my post (how many more till I'm not a damn settler!)
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gaikokujin
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I'm afraid Yin is right on this: it is not difficult on Monarchy level for your reasonably developed civ with ~10 good core cities, no 'scientific' advantage, ranking only 3rd or 4th in the civ competition, to arrive at Industrialization in the mid 14th century. And that is _with_ the artificial 4 turn limit! With almost all the competition right up there with you, if not beyond you.
So, ironically, the artificial limit doesn't even disguise the fact that it takes little thought, case or attention to quickly move up the tech tree - at least to the thoughtful player.
quote:
Originally posted by yin26
Well, the first issue is one of having an apparently enforced limitation on the rate of reasearch. Thus, there is no advantage past a certain point to having massive research ability. This is an entirely unsatisfying limit on the game, one that seems imposed on the gamer for two unsatisfying reasons 1) to keep an otherwise weak computer opponent in the game and 2) to force the tech tree to spread across X amount of turns.
Those other issue as to 2 v 4 turns, it makes a HUGE difference! Over the course of the game, you'd be able to have an enormous tech advantage and, thereby, have much greater control over the tech trading the comp does and be able to capitalize on techs much sooner. Think about it.
10 techs at 4 / turn = 40 turns
10 techs at 2 / turn = 20 turns
Play that over the course of the entire game! In other words, the artificial limits (if that's really what's going on, but who can possible say with all the great info we get?) simply punish a good player and reward mediocrity. |
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06-12-2001 16:46
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