30-11-2001 07:54									#1
	Why do the AI ignore my ZOC even with a fortress? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Yeah. Why?

	30-11-2001 07:58									#2
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Sorry I can't help ... I have this same problem Grrrrr

Maybe it goes along with the rest of AI cheating - their irrigation producing extra food before they switch out of Despotism, and the corruption stuff ....

Cheers ... Lets make the best of it i guess :
~Alex

	30-11-2001 08:05									#3
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I didn't think there was a ZOC in this game.

	30-11-2001 08:06									#4
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one word: broken... =(

	30-11-2001 08:13									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I didn't think there was a ZOC in this gae.

There is, but it works differently.

Basically, if an enemy enters your zone of control then you get to automatically attack it ... BUT only if 2 situations are true:

1) you are in a fortress
2) your unit is capable of doing so (look in the civlopedia for details on which units can)

Broken sounds right now to

OH well ... maybe it'll be fixed ...

Cheers!
~Alex

	30-11-2001 08:17									#6
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Well, i have a rifleman in a fortress, and he just looks the landscape in the middle of a war.

	30-11-2001 08:20									#7
	from the manual Got spare money?

Like it say's in the manual....

Zones of control: The idea that any unit can interdict the terrain squares that surround it has been discarded. This means that units of different nationalities can move freely around among each other. However, the idea that some military units can take advantage of their speed and the proximity of an enemy unit remains.These units can launch an attack on any enemy unit foolish enough to pass through an adjacent terrain square.

from pages 43-44

Zorkk

	30-11-2001 08:35									#8
	Re: from the manual Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Zorkk Like it say's in the manual.... Zones of control: The idea that any unit can interdict the terrain squares that surround it has been discarded. This means that units of different nationalities can move freely around among each other. However, the idea that some military units can take advantage of their speed and the proximity of an enemy unit remains.These units can launch an attack on any enemy unit foolish enough to pass through an adjacent terrain square. from pages 43-44 Zorkk

We realize this, but it doesn't always happen - my horsemen don't always automatically attack those civs that i'm at war with!

Also, i says that if you are in a fortress that no matter what unit you are, you gain the ability ... but it won't work either ...

Thus our problem ..

Cheers
~Alex

	30-11-2001 12:39									#9
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Alexander, you know under despotism you can still get more than 2food, etc. per square right? I mean if you produce 3 you get 2. If you produce 4 you get three. I wasn't sure if you meant the computer got all 3 or all 4. Despotism just subtrancts 1 for everything over 2.

	30-11-2001 15:18									#10
	ZOC makes me sad Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

folks, I've had FORTRESSES filled with TANKS, and they still didn't seem to make opportunity attacks.

However, I have seen (rarely) opportunity attacks happen.

So my theory is that one or two things are happening:

1) There is a goofy bug preventing ZOC's from working as described.
2) There is an intentional limitation to ZOC's. But no one knows what it is, it's not in the manual, and it happens the vast majority of the time (in which case it should change).

ER

	30-11-2001 15:35									#11
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Hmm. My faster units do take shots at passing goons... but I haven't looked into the fortress situation -but I remember reading they should grant automatic ZOC.

My impression was that ZOC is a random thing -it happens some of the time, but not always.

	30-11-2001 15:46									#12
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My cavalry has always fired at passing units, but I haven't seen many other units do it.

	30-11-2001 19:14									#13
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My mechanised infantry certainly takes pot shots at passing enemies, but it doesn't seem to do it every time. I'm pretty sure there's a bug lurking here somewhere.

	30-11-2001 19:24									#14
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I think it may have something to do with fortifying the unit, not actually being in a Fortress, but using the "F" action, which can be done anywhere.

	30-11-2001 19:38									#15
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Damn!. I think its a nasty bug. It makes my Maginot line useless!

	30-11-2001 20:56									#16
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It annoys me, the fact that the fortress/ZOC attacks, even when they do happen, only seem to do minimal damage to a unit, rather than actaully crippling it!

If the unit moving past the fortress/ZOC doesn't also have a speed advantage, then it should be completely trashed, down to 1hp or destroyed.
Perhaps if the unit also has a speed advantage, then it should only lose 1hp, enabling cavalry/tank attacks to do flanking manouvers, but making a tradiaitonal Swordsman/archer attack defeatable by a well placed castle.
Hmmm I like this compromise, thoughts anyone?

The ZOCs coud befinately be beefed up a bit.


Pingu:

	01-12-2001 01:05									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Asesino_Virtual Damn!. I think its a nasty bug. It makes my Maginot line useless!

Just like the real one, then? That's realism for you!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

	01-12-2001 01:16									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Asesino_Virtual Yeah. Why?

The Civ-2 style ZOC-ability is gone - also for speedy units (like the cavalry) within fortresses, it seems. The "free shoots" was meant as an replacemeant, but these seems to occur only seldomly, with plenty of passive impotent responses in between.

Does this make the whole idea with border-guarding fortresses more or less impotent and useless? Well, yes unfortunately.

	01-12-2001 04:51									#19
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Questions:
When a unit is in a fortress and it "exercises" its ZOC, was the unit fortified?

When a unit is NOT in a fortress and it "exercises" its ZOC, was the unit fortified?

My suspicion is that the "fortified" status of a unit and its ZOC status are relevant. Also, its status may have to be different whether it's in a fortress or not -- further "research" is clearly necessary.

Check within the Civilopedia and/or the Editor to see if a specific unit has a ZOC on its own (all units are supposed to have one in a fortress -- but the fortified bit has to be cleared up).

Now personally, I would prefer that fortified units NEVER exercise their ZOC. They are more concerned with not losing their lives than with interfering with someone just passing in front of them.*

*That's because of my previous experience with wargames back in the 70's (paper maps, cardboard counters for units; Redmond Simonsen, James Dunnigan of SPI).

	01-12-2001 05:10									#20
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It is really simple guys.

ZOC is NOT broken. I've done some tests and it seems to work fine for me.

The thing that makes it look broken is that, when you make an opportunity attack AND miss, you don't see an animation, no feedback, nothing. Also, they make only ONE attack, which, if successful, does 1 damage. Nothing more. (it might be weak, but not broken). Furthermore, I *think* that only ONE unit in a stackc an make an opportunity attack. Not 100% sure tho, but it looks like this.

In the editor, I made a 50/50 unit just for one civ, with ZOC, and when playing(against spearman and warriors), I nearly always made a successful opportunity attack. So I don't think it's broken directly.

The way combat works, may, or may not be broken tho. Opportunity attack just use those same rules, nothing more, nothing less.

One thing that might be nice is, when the opportunity attack is successful, the unit cannot enter the squared where ZOC was exerted.

	01-12-2001 15:42									#21
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good investigations karhgath, I have been thinking that missed attacks are skipped too.

However, if ALL of your guesses are true (only one unit ZOC attacks, successful attack stops movement), then it sounds like ZOC is really, really, stupid.


ER