02-12-2001 01:25									#31
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Darkknight Right now I would trust Activision more then Firaxis/Infrogfames. I used to look up at Firaxians as gods. I'm 16 I have chosen game design as my hoped for career. My ambition was to someday work in the same company as Sid in 10 years or so but now I see you're just like everyone else. In it for the money F*ck the fans!

It's not the FIRAXIS, it is the INFOGRAMES.
They are the one to BLAME.

Now, Firaxis itself has been partialy guilty, because they agreed to support some sort NON-INFORMATION PACT with Infogrames before the relese of Civ3, so they couldn't say to us that game is about to ship non-finished.

Also that German issuse is NOT Firaxis fault, it is entirely Infogrames.

Pity,
Loctus was one of the best CTP scenario-mod designers.
Now, HE won't design anything for Civ3.

Pity...


P.S.
Can somebody from Apolytoners look at LEGAL TXT files of civ3 and find anything about rights to get not punished for moding the game.

As far as I understand. Only thing you should not do is to chage SOURCE CODE and to SELL your MODS & SCENARIOS.

And, I don't think that TXT files are source code.
If they are, then they shouldn't be viewable.
FIRAXIS SHOULD HIDE THIS THING IN PATCH,
because elsewhere someone else will be punished.

	02-12-2001 01:40									#32
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by player1 Pity, Loctus was one of the best CTP scenario-mod designers. Now, it won't design anything for Civ3.

it?



sad to see Locutus go....

oh wait, I haven't played Civ3 in weeks...

sad for YOU civ3 fans, not me, I stopped caring about Civ3 a long time ago

	02-12-2001 01:54									#33
	Got spare money?

That was a typo.

	02-12-2001 02:01									#34
	Remove this text

I just hope that MOO3 won't be screwed up because of Infogrames.

Althought, there where some cuts it's nothing compared to Civ3 "cuts".

But, on the other hand MOO3 (master of Orion 3) is "maybe" a reason why Civ3 is rushed.
They didn't want these games to be released to close in time.
So they gave deadline to Firaxis.
And, rest is History...

	02-12-2001 05:30									#35
	Support Apolyton

quote: but now they apparently expect us to ask for written permission before we make any modifications to the game. How many other games are there out there for which this is required? Such policy is absolutely rediculous, there is no excuse for it

We should all stop this hoax.
We could continue it, but nobody would get any profit from running such a hoax.

Infogrames has made one official reaction, and it was towards a group of people that wanted to release something that IG wanted to release itself.

Multiple mods and programms have already been written, and none of these resulted in any reaction from Infogrames.
Infogrames doesn't want us to ask a written permission to mod the game, it just doesn't want us to release something they want to release themselves.

quote: Dan Magaha: Sorry to hear that. I was really looking forward to seeing what you could do with Civ III scenarios when the tools get up to snuff.

I think we can learn from this that the scenario tools will be improved, pherhaps with the soon to come patch, pherhaps later.

why did nobody react to this ?
Or is my english that bad that I don't know that 'up to snuff' means something like "It won't get any better ?" ?

anyway, Locotus, don't leave us because of a hoax, and for sure not before you've used the patch.

CyberShy

	02-12-2001 08:06									#36
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Wow! Thanks for all the kind words and support guys I figured one or two people would come tell me how they regretted my decision and wave me goodbye but I didn't expect this kind of response (even from a Firaxian!). I must have done something right in the last few months Quite frankly half I expected y'all to critize my decision for being unfounded and irrational. I couldn't have been more wrong...

edit: Just realized this: here's a thread started by me AND posted in by Dan Magaha, yet Markos has NOT made a newsitem out of it. What are the odds of that ever happening? That in itself is worth making a newsitem about

Wernazuma,
I'll gladly help you out with the Ethiopians. I'll look into it sometime this week.

Ka Shima,
Noone at Firaxis has at any point denied the deficiencies of the editing tools, that's never been the problem (in fact, AFAIK everyone at Firaxis has acknowledged these problems from the very beginning).

Yin,
But I do love bugs! (Why else do you think I'm always so lyrical about CtP? ) However, only as long as the game is customizable enough to allow me to fix them myself

Assur,

quote: it?

Actually, I think the experts still haven't reached consensus yet on whether Borg drones should be considered its or (s)hes

player1,
You make a good point about the MoO3 deadline issue, hadn't thought of that yet. MoO3 developments will be very interesting to follow, even for people who are only interested in Civ3...

Cybershy (et al),
They 'sued' a fan once, who says they won't do it again? Legally speaking they *are* correct so noone can stop 'em...

I don't think Kai would agree with you that the sh*t he's gotten involved in should be regarded a hoax, the events of the last week could have some very real consequences for him for a long time to come. My decision is not only because I fear being sued myself - which I do, to a certain extend; I'm certainly not willing to take my chances on it (out of principle I refuse to ask Infogrames or Firaxis for permission before I make any modifications) - but also because I feel obliged to somehow sympathise with this guy.

But as I explained above, my reasons for leaving are many, it's a combination of factors: the German translation scandal is only the last straw (as the Dutch saying goes: "it's the drop that makes the bucket flow over" - although in this case it's more a sizeable dash than a drop). The relatively poor quality of the game itself (the bugs/lack of balance, the 'conservative sequel', etc), the limited modding abilities, the way fans are being threated, etc, all these things combined make me leave, not just one or the other.

Sure, some things (MP, scenario support) could still be fixed (and Firaxians have promised to do this since even before the game was released) but I find it hard to believe that what is currently a poor game (for me anyway, as an advocate of 'progressive sequels' and a hard-core modmaker) will ever turn into an absolutely fantastic game. IMHO, the patches will be too little too late (I know from experience that customizibility (esp. scripting) is something that needs to be incorporated into a game-engine early on: with adding stuff afterwards you can only do so much). Although if I hear very good things about the patches in the future I will gladly take that back. In the meantime though, I'd rather focus my attention on something that's already fantastic (to me anyway), namely CtP...

Combine this with the poor way in which fans are being treated (the LE issue, the discrimination of non-Americans, the poor PR (to once again use Yin's words), the C&D orders, the slandering, etc) - for which there simply is no excuse IMHO - and I have completely lost all my interest in this game. Even if the patches are absolutely amazing and are beyond even my wildest dreams, I'm not sure if I can forgive Firaxis and Infogrames such behaviour (the exact role of each company in all of this is unclear but since they're publishing this game together neither company is entirely free of blame).

If in a few months I start hearing incredible things about Civ3's customizibility and if the CtP forums are dying out because everyone is switching to Civ3 (right now the reverse process is going on: the CtP forums are actually growing in activity, presumably because Civ3 is for some such a disappointment), I might have another look at Civ3. If the fans are being treated better and if I'm so impressed by the 'modding-power' I can't wait to get my hands dirty I might be able to let bygones be bygones. If that happens you'll see me reappearing here soon enough but, quite frankly, I (sceptical as I am) don't believe it's a possibility until it happens before my very eyes...

	02-12-2001 08:18									#37
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Welcome back to the CTP2 Modding community Locutus...Our gain!!!

Frankly, I am still holding out hope for the patch, but if it is merely a band-aid, then I hope my wife kept the receipt for civ3, because civ3 as a christmas gift will not make it to the New Year.

	02-12-2001 13:03									#38
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Right, Locutus,

quote: But I do love bugs! (Why else do you think I'm always so lyrical about CtP?

So, how bout the multiplayer diplomacy bug you were working on, or that other multiplayer cheat bug. Somebody posted recently asking if it had ever been fixed; AFAIK no one ever's tried fixing it.

You Civ3 guys should notice the HUGE difference between CTP2 and Civ3 that the above comments reveal. In CTP2 when you find a bug, you think to yourself (well once you learn SLIC, but it's not that difficult) "How can I fix it?" With Civ3's lack of a scripting language and accessable data, all you can think is "I wonder how much whining it will take before I can get them to fix it?"

P.S., Welcome back!

	02-12-2001 13:03									#39
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Locotus: They 'sued' a fan once, who says they won't do it again? Legally speaking they *are* correct so noone can stop 'em...

Well, we've all learned something from that accident :
If IG sends you 'anything', don't hire a laywer, sign it and send it back. And further:

1. don't make any IRL info available about yourself
2. don't tell IG if you're going to release civ3 MP
3. be sure to live in a country that doesn't has an IG department (The Netherlands ?)

on the serious side:
I don't know if you read my (complete) opinion about the german translation incident (Read it in the thread) but I'm completely satisfied that in fact nothing very special happened. Anyway, there's no good reason to start that discussion overhere as well.

About civ3..........
I think the fact if you have fun playing a game shouldn't be dependant on the manufacturer or the reseller etc. etc.

It depends on the fact if you like it or not.
Imagine that civ3 would be the greatest game we'll ever see and we're all stuned about it.............. (I am btw )
But the company that created it is a bunch of @ssholes.
Should I cease playing the game for that reason ?
screw them ! I have my fun and I play it anyway.

Thus, if you really dislike civ3, cease playing it.
But if you like it, pherhaps after the patch, continue to play. You only hurt yourself to stop, you won't hurt Firaxis or IG !

CyberShy

	02-12-2001 13:18									#40
	Increase Your PM Length

Bye bye Locutus...

Personally, I'm not sure I'll buy it either.

	02-12-2001 19:01									#41
	Support Apolyton

quote: Thus, if you really dislike civ3, cease playing it.

I have to say, after all is said and done, I think (when you get past all the irritating bits) that Civ3 is the best of all of them, arguably including the CTP games. Didn't barbarians appearing out of nowhere and still wasting your time between ending turns attacking you with 15 phalanx a turn after you just launch a ship for AC. Having to actually move caravans, diplomats and spies, etc, across whole continents and vast oceans for 10 gold a turn really get up anyone elses nose? The support offered to us still smells worse than a Sarlacc pit monster's rear end though.

My decision is to wait for the patch before I make my final judgement and being new here I obviously can't say for sure, but your work for and presence in the Sid Meier part of this community seems to be greatly appreaciated, did I read rightly that you were a project leader? Surely that is an indication of the respect you have and reading the opening post of this thread I for one think you deserve it.

	02-12-2001 19:48									#42
	Suffering from ads?

It's spelt Sarlacc.

	02-12-2001 19:49									#43
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hmm... on second thoughts, maybe it has an equal place with Test of Time - Elves, Dwarves and so on - What a good idea!

Thanks Sytass

	02-12-2001 22:18									#44
	You're right Locutus!!! Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

With all the effort you've put regarding Civ III, I hope Firaxis and Inforgame realize the loss.

For now, I decided not to buy CIV III.

I hope all of our friends, here, that thought of buying it for Christmas, for them, or to give, also decide not to buy this "five star" straight jacket that Inforgam offered to all those that like to customize their games.

	02-12-2001 23:14									#45
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Personaly, I hope that many people will buy this game.

If they not, Infogrames will decide that patching is unnecesary (they lost much money & nobody bought it), and they'll abadon civ3.

That's the thing which happend to CTP2.
I hope that won't happen to Civ3.

Most games with expecting XP are usually patched well (like Stracraft).
But there are exeptions like Heroes of Might and Magic 3 (so many unbalancing units). At least it has a HotSeat.

	03-12-2001 01:37									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Wow, harsh





Welcome back Wouter! (not that you ever really left)

	03-12-2001 08:54									#47
	Increase the size of your Attachments

We've disagreed often, but this is what I call slamming the door on an exit.

	03-12-2001 09:54									#48
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

C'mon Joe - say it ain't so....

P.S. How about teenspeak (circa 1950's) - "Longityoso" ( the Patty Duke Show - although that's pretty L-7 )

On a more serious note, I understand your concerns regarding these issues - and it'll be nice having you back on the CTP forums - I've been enjoying (this is true!!!) playing CTP II with the new mods.

I'm not sure I agree on the issue of liability for modding. My experience is criminal rather than intellectual (law that is ) but I think it's unlikely IG would go after a mod maker. But that's a matter of opinion and I respect the concerns people have.

Anyway - I hope you'll be back on Civ III. I am hoping we'll see some essential modification ability soon

I guess I'll just end with:

Shane, Shane, come back Shane.......

	03-12-2001 10:11									#49
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Hey Beagle -

If you've seen my concerns on Civ3 here, can you tell me how I may like CTP2? I tend to prefer a realistic nation building game of empire and destiny. I don't like sissy spaceship wins, I want to win or die trying. Is CTP2 maybe a good game for me?

Venger

	03-12-2001 18:28									#50
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I'm just upset that I paid 60 bucks for this, and I'm going to have to pay another 40 for the add on in march to make it work....

stupid Infogrames (I don't blame Firaxis one bit, they were rushed to meet the deadline, because people wanted money....)

the game is still playable, I did have to balance some stuff myself... but I WAS looking forward to MODing and Scenario making in Civ3, just like I used to in Civ2..... ahh the good old days, when my page had thousands of hits, lol

*note my page has been taken down for the last year

	03-12-2001 18:42									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Venger Hey Beagle - If you've seen my concerns on Civ3 here, can you tell me how I may like CTP2? I tend to prefer a realistic nation building game of empire and destiny. I don't like sissy spaceship wins, I want to win or die trying. Is CTP2 maybe a good game for me? Venger

Err... you gotta be kidding. But in case you're not: CTP2 is not a good game for you.


Fred

	03-12-2001 18:55									#52
	Give him a break Inflate your Upload Space

Locutus,

I of course am very sad to see you go, having personally enjoyed your various mods. On the other hand, I completely support your decision, and in fact argued for it in another thread. I can only hope that your decision will help pile some kind of pressure on Infogrames (perhaps via Firaxis) to clarify or alter their position, one blurry at best, awful for modders at worst.

Best Wishes,

-mario



and to cybershy...

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Anyway, there's no good reason to start that discussion overhere as well.

Right. So keep it quarantined, instead of spreading the plague, OK?

	03-12-2001 19:32									#53
	Re: That does it! I'm outta here... Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I agree with you with all my heart, Locutus and as I have had more than my fill of Firaxis/Infogrames bilge I'll see you over at the CTP forums! I know you will be sorely missed, here in CIV III land, but am glad to see I am not alone in my feelings.

	03-12-2001 19:39									#54
	Put an end to popups!

We shall all miss you tremendously around Civ-Civilizations, Locutus!

	03-12-2001 19:40									#55
	Got spare money?

This is sad... Both because Locotus now leaves, and because of this negative bullshit about Civ3! Civ3 is one of this year's best games, and I'm really disappointed to see all this nonsense that has been given Civ3!

Why are you people so negative? The reason "because of high expentations" wont hold for me, I also had that, and I, as said, like the game!

	03-12-2001 20:04									#56
	Plumbean Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Dont quit now everything you work hard at will go for nothing and you are letting them win.When did we ever ask for permission to alter Civ II .In the beginning of Civ II there was no edit program hang in there and we will do it without Infogames.
They are trying to scare people there is no way they can go after every one who alters the game they would be cutting off there own fan base.PLEASE come back to the project.At least wait for the patch to come out you know there going to release a edit program to .I have found info on several other webs that people are writing program Edits for units,map and scenario building and save edits .WE ARE ALL BEHIND YOU do not QUIT we all feel the same way you do

	03-12-2001 20:08									#57
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Sorry Locutus... I still think this is the most fun civ game, yet. Please stop the whining. If all of you hate this game so much, then stop visiting the forums, stop playing the game, and stop subjecting all of us fans to your non-stop whines.

I know, I know... the game should be available with a beta, demo, MP, absolutely no bugs, translations to every other language in existence, et al. Keep dreaming.

Kudos to Firaxis for releasing on time and producing a high quality product. I'm hopelessly addicted all over again. And I think it's good they left out the multiplayer if they felt they could do more with the quality and had some good, new ideas. Had they released it half-heartedly, you'd all be whining about it anyways. So what's the difference?

My only gripe is that they'll probably release the multi-player as an add-on (read: pay for) module when it should be an enhancement patch.

	03-12-2001 20:45									#58
	Suffering from ads?

I don't think I read anyone complaining about the game playability itself, bugs withstanding. I believe it is the editor or lack thereof that is the problem. People want to mod and create scenarios that is what kept Civ2 alive for so long, not just because gameplay was fun. But now there are no more easily modded text files, animations aren't any kind of standard format. They made everything more difficult, that is what people are complaining about.


Locutus,

You have had quite an impact on the modding comunity as a whole. I myself was looking forward to some of the things you could create in Civ3. Hopefully, everything will work out and we will see you back here before too long. Good bye and good luck.

	03-12-2001 21:26									#59
	An Opposing View Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Regarding CTP:

quote: Originally posted by Peter Triggs So, how bout the multiplayer diplomacy bug you were working on, or that other multiplayer cheat bug. Somebody posted recently asking if it had ever been fixed; AFAIK no one ever's tried fixing it. In CTP2 when you find a bug, you think to yourself "How can I fix it."

So people enjoy fixing the CTP2 bugs themselves? Hmmm. It seems like that should be the developers' job.

I think Civ3 is a great game. It's relatively bug-free (at least as bug free as any other game released these days) and the AI is the most advanced around IMO.

I also have found it amazing and wonderful that the Firaxis developers read and post into these forums (THANKS GUYS)! You won't find that with many other games.

What you people are failing to realize about the German translation issue is that a "mod" of this type can affect their bottom line. And remember that many companies' accounting books may be separate for Europe and for the US (so it DOES matter where you buy the product). That is why they wanted to put an end to the translation mod.

I have found that the base game of Civ3 is much more playable (and more fun) than 99% of the mods I've played for Civ2 and CTP2. I say, give me a great game 1st and worry about the mods 2nd. Civ3 is a great game as it stands and it sounds like Firaxis is working to improve it. That's good enough for me.

So, Lucutus, do what you want. I won't lose any sleep over your decision.

	03-12-2001 21:33									#60
	Crosses arms and taps foot... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I had planned on buying CivIII LE as X-mas gifts but with everything thats going on I don't think it's a good idea. I definately won't be getting anyone the LE since I already got ripped off on it. The LE sux and everytime I look at that stupid tin I could kick myself. There are also the numerous bugs and unless the patch is something spectacular and unless it comes within the next 4 1/2 days, then CivIII is not being bought for any of my family or friends.

Can anyone recommend an alternative?

Me waiting for the patch on Monday ----->