01-12-2001 07:36									#1
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Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX) gave a speech in Congress on 11/29. Here's a transcripted version lifted from his website [ www.house.gov/paul ]

Oil, oil, oil...

- Scipio

	01-12-2001 08:13									#3
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I agree with much of what Paul said, but I disagree with one thing - his opposition to the war in Afghanistan. AFAIK, the war is about getting as much as aid as possible to the Afghan people. Now that the attack has begun, the Red Cross and other charity organizations certainly aren't going to be let into Taliban territory. It needs to be under Allied control if we're going to prevent the starvation of millions of Afghans.

But I didn't even know of the plan to hand over Kurdish lands in Iraq to the Turks. I can't say it surprises me, though. Is there a place with more comprehensive information about the Rumsfield's plan?

	01-12-2001 08:16									#4
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Erm, I'm not quite sure why it's our business whether or not millions of Afghans starve, or whatever.

	01-12-2001 08:18									#5
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Among other reasons, our bombs are what have caused the Taliban to repress civil liberties so much these past months, exacerberating the problem by quite a bit.

	01-12-2001 08:28									#6
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Ah, I see what you were saying - I still might disagree, but I thought you were saying that it was our business all along, even before we started bombing.

	01-12-2001 08:31									#7
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I disagree with his anti-gun control statements, but everything else Besides, gun control can wait until this threat to civil liberties has passed. I'm decidedly worried that the US will become a police state before too long.

	01-12-2001 08:35									#8
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It still is our business. Just 'cuz it's another country doesn't mean it's not our business.

I didn't support the start of the war principally because there wasn't a viable alternative. After all, the NA is nothing more than a bunch of murdering thugs, marginally better than the Taliban.

	01-12-2001 08:35									#9
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Victor, I'm not criticizing, but how do you reconcile the fact that you support civil liberties, but don't support the private ownership of firearms? Russ Feingold, the only US Senator to vote against the USA Patriot Act, is even pro-gun...

	01-12-2001 08:36									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis I disagree with his anti-gun control statements, but everything else Besides, gun control can wait until this threat to civil liberties has passed. I'm decidedly worried that the US will become a police state before too long.

ugh?


Guns are what protect the civil liberties. Guns are a Civil Liberty.

	01-12-2001 08:38									#11
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"Victor, I'm not criticizing, but how do you reconcile the fact that you support civil liberties, but don't support the private ownership of firearms? Russ Feingold, the only US Senator to vote against the USA Patriot Act, is even pro-gun..."

-I support reasonable exchanges of liberty for security, not mass surrender of civil liberties that don't return **** in terms of security.

	01-12-2001 08:41									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis -I support reasonable exchanges of liberty for security, not mass surrender of civil liberties that don't return **** in terms of security.

How can you be Anti-Gun and pro civil liberties? You cant..... Owning a gun is a civil liberty.

And then you cannot make the arguement of public safety? In that case, your opposition to AT legiasilation shouldnt be.

	01-12-2001 08:48									#13
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"How can you be Anti-Gun and pro civil liberties?"

-I'm not pro-civil liberties. I'm anti-stupidity. Surrendering a mass of civil liberties is stupid. Hence my opposition.

"Owning a gun is a civil liberty."

-Not everything protected by the constitution is a civil liberty.

"In that case, your opposition to AT legiasilation shouldnt be."

-Wanting free and open police procedures isn't quite same as wanting guns everyone to have guns. Not all "rights" are equal.

	01-12-2001 08:48									#14
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Only a libertarian can point out how the war (and foreign policy in general) is overly influenced by oil and not mention alternative energy or conservation. I suppose strictly narrow-minded dogma has always been a barrier to logical connections.

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I'm not quite sure why it's our business whether or not millions of Afghans starve

There is a reason why it is the business for those of us who are human. Think about it.

	01-12-2001 08:48									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo ...AFAIK, the war is about getting as much as aid as possible to the Afghan people...

Am I to understand that you think we bombed Afghanistan in order to insure that we could provide aid to the citizens who are starving as a result of the bombings?



Aside from the fact that assertion makes no sense to me, I thought, the 'offical' reason we attacked Afghanistan was because The Taliban government refused to hand over Osam Bin-Laden... However, after reading parts of Ron Paul's speech, that explanation has come into question...

quote: Now that the attack has begun, the Red Cross and other charity organizations certainly aren't going to be let into Taliban territory. It needs to be under Allied control if we're going to prevent the starvation of millions of Afghans.

[Aside: there is a Muslim version of the Red Cross]. Many humanitarian groups were operating [at varying levels of inefficiency, admittedly] inside Afghanistan prior to our assault.

quote: But I didn't even know of the plan to hand over Kurdish lands in Iraq to the Turks. I can't say it surprises me, though. Is there a place with more comprehensive information about the Rumsfield's plan?

Unknown about Rumsfeld's machinations... It would be naive for anyone to assume that governments in the western world do not actively make 'plans' for lands not currently under their control... and vice-versa.

- Scipio

	01-12-2001 08:55									#16
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quote: Am I to understand that you think we bombed Afghanistan in order to insure that we could provide aid to the citizens who are starving as a result of the bombings? Aside from the fact that assertion makes no sense to me, I thought, the 'offical' reason we attacked Afghanistan was because The Taliban government refused to hand over Osam Bin-Laden... However, after reading parts of Ron Paul's speech, that explanation has come into question...

I never said that. If you re-read my post, I added the qualifier AFAIK - as far as I'm concerned, before the so-called "assertion."

quote: [Aside: there is a Muslim version of the Red Cross]. Many humanitarian groups were operating [at varying levels of inefficiency, admittedly] inside Afghanistan prior to our assault.

(bold added)
Again, re-read my posts.

quote: It would be naive for anyone to assume that governments in the western world do not actively make 'plans' for lands not currently under their control... and vice-versa.

I never said I didn't know there was a plan about Iraq. I said I didn't know the specifics of the plan.

	01-12-2001 08:59									#17
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quote: -I support reasonable exchanges of liberty for security, not mass surrender of civil liberties that don't return **** in terms of security.

"Those who would give up a little necessary safety for some temporary security deserve neither." - Benjamin Franklin

quote: There is a reason why it is the business for those of us who are human. Think about it.

Ah, you're not still sore over those Amerindian debates are ya?

Anyway, starving people in Afghanistan is no more the business of the United States than, say, the Holocaust was. Sure, we can morally condemn it, but going into a country to stop it without permission is wrong, too.

	01-12-2001 09:04									#18
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Why is it wrong? A state doesn't have rights, people have rights.

	01-12-2001 09:05									#19
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Incorrect. There is such a thing as national sovereignty. That is, the United States has no business to go into another nation to right the wrongs it decides are being committed.

	01-12-2001 09:08									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Why is it wrong? A state doesn't have rights, people have rights.

yes and no

(too lazy to elaborate. Use imagination)

	01-12-2001 09:11									#21
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quote: Incorrect. There is such a thing as national sovereignty. That is, the United States has no business to go into another nation to right the wrongs it decides are being committed.

National sovereignty is bullshit. The rights of the people trump the rights of the state. How can you be a libertarian and disagree?

	01-12-2001 09:15									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo National sovereignty is bullshit. The rights of the people trump the rights of the state. How can you be a libertarian and disagree?

Since when? "Human Rights" are nothing. 1/3 of the world recognizes them. That is how Sovereignty trumps it. (not that it should)

We cant exactly enfore these things.

	01-12-2001 09:17									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo I never said that. If you re-read my post, I added the qualifier AFAIK - as far as I'm concerned, before the so-called "assertion."

I'm sorry, but I just find it very difficult to believe that you [apparantly] still think we bombed Afghanistan in order to ensure that we could provide them aid. Is this still your claim?

quote: (bold added) Again, re-read my posts.

Re-read 3 times... same conclusion reached 3 times.

quote: I never said I didn't know there was a plan about Iraq. I said I didn't know the specifics of the plan.

I was just making a rhetorical response.

	01-12-2001 09:24									#24
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quote: I'm sorry, but I just find it very difficult to believe that you [apparantly] still think we bombed Afghanistan in order to ensure that we could provide them aid. Is this still your claim?

I, I support the war to prevent mass-starvation.

quote: Re-read 3 times... same conclusion reached 3 times.

I said:
Now that the attack has begun, the Red Cross and other charity organizations certainly aren't going to be let into Taliban territory. It needs to be under Allied control if we're going to prevent the starvation of millions of Afghans.

Among other reasons, our bombs are what have caused the Taliban to repress civil liberties so much these past months, exacerberating the problem by quite a bit.

You said:
[Aside: there is a Muslim version of the Red Cross]. Many humanitarian groups were operating [at varying levels of inefficiency, admittedly] inside Afghanistan prior to our assault.

(Again, bold added)

	01-12-2001 09:32									#25
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd you're not still sore over those Amerindian debates are ya?

Nope. You'll learn about the difference between fee simple title and easements one of these days.

quote: Anyway, starving people in Afghanistan is no more the business of the United States than, say, the Holocaust was.

That is one of the scariest quotes I've seen on Apolyton. How is it that you are also a nice, polite guy?

	01-12-2001 09:41									#26
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quote: Originally posted by n.c. Only a libertarian can point out how the war (and foreign policy in general) is overly influenced by oil and not mention alternative energy or conservation. I suppose strictly narrow-minded dogma has always been a barrier to logical connections.

A typically narrow-minded statist viewpoint.

"Anyone who disagrees with me on this issue, must solve all of the worlds problems before attempting to voice dissent."

Try to think outside of the box for a change. It gives one an amazing sense of purpose to question one's own dogmatic views from time-to-time. I personally, have occupied much of the US political spectrum [Republican --> Democrat --> Libertarian] with each succesive change coming as a result of periods of deep introspection.

The discussion of alternative energy and conservation are subjects deserving of debate in their own right, but they would have simply clouded the salient points of Ron Paul's speech. Focus.

quote: There is a reason why it is the business for those of us who are human. Think about it.

Then solve it in a humane and business-like fashion, so you don't disturb the rest of us who aren't interested in being dragged along on your latest holy crusade that will cost thousands of innocents their lives.

	01-12-2001 09:45									#27
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Am I the only one that doesn't think that this war is over oil?

	01-12-2001 10:05									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo ...I added the qualifier AFAIK - as far as I'm concerned, before the so-called "assertion."

OK. Here's the problem, I think. You said AFAIK means "as far as I'm concerned", but it actually means "as far as I know". A subtle, but crucial distinction. So what you are saying is you disagreed with our initiating hostilities in Afghanistan, but once things reached the point where Afghan citizens were faced with imminent starvation, you believe we now have no choice but to continue the assault until we control the region?

I don't necessarily agree that the 'Alliance' must wind up in control to stave off Afghan starvation. Many International aid organizations would move in regardless of who eventually controls the area. But on the whole, it would probably be best if the situation were completely resolved before winter sets in. And that is most likely if the USA finishes what it started, so I'll concede the point.

- Scipio

	01-12-2001 10:13									#29
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I've always been under the impression that "k" stood for concerned. I suppose "know" makes more sense.

But yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

	01-12-2001 10:39									#30
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Scipio Centaurus- You have no idea who the fvck I am or what I think.

-"Anyone who disagrees with me on this issue, must be a narrow-minded statist."
Did I miss anything?

-"a result of periods of deep introspection."
Retrospect that you don't know anything about my viewpoint.

-"Try to think outside of the box for a change."
Try to not doge my point.

-"they would have simply clouded the salient points of Ron Paul's speech."
That we are overly dependant on foreign oil? Yeah, those two points are inconvenient, oops, not sufficiently related.

-"Focus."
Or are we thinking outside of the box? I realize it's hard to to be consistent while trying to patronize, but do try.

-"don't disturb the rest of us who aren't interested"
Sorry to bother you with others starvation. Did this degree of caring and compassion come from one of your periods of deep introspection?

-"your latest holy crusade"
Wow, this is my crusade! Cool!

Amazing, since I never asked for it or even expressed support. Apparently saying that we should be concerned about others' stavation is a blanket endorsement of Bush's foreign policy.