01-12-2001 10:55									#1
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Im in a game-huge map-12 civs-Im German just entered modern age. I built up a huge completely upgraded Army(250+ units) and decided it was time to kick the russians around some.
So I first made a bunch of MPP with every civ that would do it then I started making demands to tick Cathrine off.When she became furious I tried to sneak a spy in.Well of course she caught and excecuted him and then declared war.Now 4 turns later (and the russians 4 cities lighter)more than 50% of my citizens are saying "give peace a chance".Im a democracy of course.

My Question is am I considered the aggressor here?
I thought you had to declare war to be considered the aggressor.

BTW I built the Suffrage wonder and have cop shops in all my cities.So is this normal war weariness ? If so then its safe to assume that the other civs are having probs too?Everyone is a democracy.However I dont see smoke from any of their cities.

One more thing- Im at war now with 7 different civs(the whole world is at war- each civ is at war with at least 5 to 7 others-its quite the web) so I cant go without production for 5 turns or so while I switch to Communism.Also making peace with Cathrine(which she wants very badly but not bad enough to give up space flight)will not stop the W-weariness as Ill still be at war with 6 others.besides shes the only one that will accept my envoy.

So in conclusion-
Whos the agressor?
Is this normal W-weariness?
Do you all think I should stay the course and watch the other civs implode or am I right to suspect that the AI doesnt suffer W-weariness to the extent the hp does.
I must say if this is normal and Im not the aggressor then the penalties ,I think, are rather harsh.
Sorry such a long post

	01-12-2001 12:24									#2
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what difficulty level are you playing on...?

	01-12-2001 12:24									#3
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Eric, it appears, under Civ3, to fight a war, any war, as a democracy, the following steps must be taken.

1) Build Universal Suffrage

2) Build Police Stations

3) Max out luxuries

4) Bend over, grab an ass cheek firmly with each hand, and spread apart as wide as possible, because steps 1 through 3 won't mean $hit.

I've actually had my 70% approval no cities in disorder 60% luxuries most cities in WLTPD civlization overthrow my democracy because they thought they'd enjoy 7 turns of no production, starvation, and no culture.

The solution is apparently to go with communism, which has the miraculous benefit of not having any real drawbacks, if you can swallow leading such a Civ...but they OUGHT to fix Democracy.

Apparently, you can attack enemy troops on your soil, but you cannot attack them on theirs. So you need to lie back and wait to be attacked, rather than remove the threat my attacking first.

Stupid, stupid, stupid...

Venger

	01-12-2001 13:21									#4
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Its actually only chieftain.
I retrogressed back to my first game because I didnt want to ruin any latter games at higher levels before the patch.
I only hope I can still finish those saves after the patch.

Venger-
surely you jest.
They DOWed me and I cant enter their territory?
boy you said it-STUPID-STUPID-STUPID
I think if your creaming everyone as I am in this game(my entire contenent is surrounded by waters full of the broken hulls of my enimies' ships )then the people shouldnt be so pissed.Now if I were losing.............

	01-12-2001 15:54									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Venger The solution is apparently to go with communism, which has the miraculous benefit of not having any real drawbacks, if you can swallow leading such a Civ...but they OUGHT to fix Democracy.

I just hope that wasn't an intentional decision meant to endorse that system..

>_<

	01-12-2001 17:58									#6
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Ok ... I'm ranting...

I'm encountering the same as well. The whole world is a damned Democracy ... and they don't seem to have to deal with War Weariness.

But here is another thing I noticed. I can't maintain the same sized army as they can. Even though I have more cities and a higher population, etc... Even though I'm selling off techs, passage rights, maps, luxuries to any civ that I can... (my strategy was to try to bankrupt them) ... in the trade screens I can see they are pretty poor, but they still offer 8, 11, 25 gold per turn. So I'm raking in 200 gold from other civs. Even with this I can't maintain an army that equals or is larger than theirs. My military advisor keeps telling me I am weak compared to them.

And how the hell do they have this huge military yet stay pretty even with me on tech and culture? This was on Regent level by the way. I have my science at 80% and a university in almost every city. Plus scientist ... do those guys even do anything?

Well ... I guess until the patch comes out.

Zeb

	01-12-2001 21:50									#7
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Hey Zeb, do they have nuclear weapons?

Venger

	02-12-2001 02:45									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Venger Hey Zeb, do they have nuclear weapons? Venger

No I'm currently at around infrantry tech...

	02-12-2001 02:52									#9
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quote: I have my science at 80% and a university in almost every city.

You answered your own question. Try lowering the science rate a lot, you will quickly find yourself with a MASSIVE income which can be spent on a millitary.

	02-12-2001 08:21									#10
	Max all 8 Lux Resources First Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

In Monarch, I am running a Democracy and I asked the Zulus to get out of my territory and they declared war. I immediately attacked, captured 4 Zulu cities and razed 2 cities within a few turns. I had an alliance with the Romans against the Zulus so I carried on the war for 20 turns. I had already traded for all 8 luxury resources and had marketplaces everywhere. Although there is some war weariness, none of my cities revolted in 20 turns even though I did not have Universal Suffrage and not a single Police Station.

So to have a war in Democracy,
1. Maximise luxury resources and build marketplaces. You can get 20 happy faces for 8 luxury resources.
2. Let the other civ declare war.
3. Do not get into MPPs.
4. Fight a short war.
5. Universal Suffrage and Police Stations perhaps reduce a couple of unhappy faces each, allowing a longer war.

If you want to carry on a long war, maybe getting a Peace Treaty first will reset the war weariness. Then provoke the AI into war again. This may or may not work.

	02-12-2001 11:05									#11
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In reply to your question Evil_Eric_4, I believe the spy/espionage issue is the exception to the rule. From the rule book, "If your attempt is exposed, whether it was successful or not, the targeted civilization is likely to treat your treachery as an act of war." It's the same as sneak attacking an enemy unit.

	02-12-2001 12:39									#12
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Ah I see
so I was the aggressor
makes sense-- I just made peace about 10 minutes ago with the russians and now its only 7% W-weariness
Guess thats because all the others DoWed me

	02-12-2001 23:32									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Well, in terms of MPP, aggressor is one who enters enemy territory. Even if he didn`t declare war first. That`s true.

	03-12-2001 01:04									#14
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Also don't forget that if you mobilize for war, military unit costs are half (while culture gets to half). Are you mobilizing for war?

KoalaBear33

	03-12-2001 01:42									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Venger The solution is apparently to go with communism, which has the miraculous benefit of not having any real drawbacks, if you can swallow leading such a Civ...but they OUGHT to fix Democracy.

Yes they OUGHT to fix Democracy, but not in the way you think. Democracy is far too powerful the way it is and I think War Weariness is a pretty frivolous con to it as it only affects you during war. Democracy should have some negatives during peace-time as well, or at least should be susceptable to propaganda.