01-12-2001 15:30									#1
	700 year war... help needed. Suffering from ads?

Does anyone have any suggestions for fighting in a long war? I'm playing the pangea map with 1 big giant continent on regent level. I was FAR behind in technology but headed straight for literature and built the Great Library before anyone else... that allowed me to catch up and PASS all 7 civs until about 500 AD. In 300 AD, Russia tried to blackmail me for literature and has waged a ware since then... And somehow got 6 out of 7 civs to sign an alliance against me... Babylon...

So, the war has gone on for the last 700 years and I am down to my last 6 cities and 200 or so gold. I got stuck in a resource poor part of the map and just finished research gunpowder... and of course, there's no saltpeter anywhere. Any help would be appreciated... at one time, there were over 100 enemy units attacking but manage to lose only 1 city.

Thanks.

	01-12-2001 15:49									#2
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I would suggest selling your soul diplomatically to bust of the anti-you coalition and get one or two civs to declare war on each other instead of you.

but... it sounds tough.

ER

	01-12-2001 20:20									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

set up some good defensive units on well placed hills/mountains to make some sort of barrier at the edge of your land. This will help stop the AI from getting on your territory, even if they go around your def. points, you'll be in a ready position to kill them off. Keep some artillery units near the coast to dispatch any enemy sea units. Ships usually flee once damaged, except transports and the like, those seem to do whatever they can to land the troops.

You should sue for peace though, or else your going to spend all your time cranking out units. Use extra techs, even cities as bargaining chips. Whatever you can to turn the table on the AI. Try to get the main opponent (that who started the fighting) to sign peace, if that doesnt work, go for the allies. Once you get them fighting each other you'll be pretty much fine.. if they respond. If not, then charge and capture some of their cities, but avoid razing

	01-12-2001 22:36									#4
	Put an end to popups!

if you see one civ sign a MPP against you,.. offer your life to get one of those pacts in return with someone else..it will likely cause a world war later but will save your hide while you get more advanced

	02-12-2001 00:16									#5
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Well, tough cituation. you have to go for 3 goals plan -
1.Make peace with at least one of your opponents.
2. Try and destroy the coalition against you.
3. Achieve peace with more civ's (preferably all of them)

As the previous posts in Strategy and Help shows, AI is quite good on attack, but not so well on defence. Try some deep penetration raids with mounted units to capture cities within their mainland - these are usually not so well manned as the frontlines. This may make AI more peace-minded.
Another point - diplomatic.
If through your deep raids you manage to capture some cities within the heartland of one of your opponents, try to do this:
Find out who is allied against you to this opponent (let's call them CivA and their ally - CivB).
Contact CivB and sell them for peace cities you captured within territories of CivA. Just don;t forget to pull your units out of the city first or their ownership will also be transferred.
The AI can rarely withstand the temptation of couple of cities, and they will probably agree to the peace. So here is your first goal achieved - peace with at least some civs.
When CivB agrees to the peace with you it is a great affront to their allies - CivA. Therefore it leads to destruction/shaking of the coalition. Here is your goal number 2
Also CivA is not going to be happy by CivB posessing some of their historical cities in their mainland. Hence tensions and possible outbreak of war between former allies. CivA probably would not like to wage 2 wars at a time and they may agree to the peace with you - here is your goal N3.
You can repeat this trick with many allies.
In my personal experience I got English-Russian alliance against me (Germans) brocken this way.
Good Luck!

	02-12-2001 04:29									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

At bit late for you in this situation, but this is very beneficial for long term success.

Never, ever ignore diplomacy, especially when wars are afoot. If you are attacked, get on the horn and get as many AI civs on your side against your enemy as possible. Know for a fact that the enemy AI is doing the same thing, and the neutrals will not join your side just for the hell of it, you need to ask. They often will agree without any form of inducement, but sometimes they will want some consideration (gold, tech, luxeries, etc).

Always, always avoid wars with anyone who has MPPs with other civs. The allied civs will declare war on you weather you are the agressor or not.

Always, always isolate any intended victim (make MPPs with everyone else but them). March into their territory, declare war when they ask you to leave. All of your MPP allies will declare war on them too (have settlers on stand by, because the fight may be very short).

	02-12-2001 09:28									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Never, ever ignore diplomacy, especially when wars are afoot. If you are attacked, get on the horn and get as many AI civs on your side against your enemy as possible. Know for a fact that the enemy AI is doing the same thing, and the neutrals will not join your side just for the hell of it, you need to ask. They often will agree without any form of inducement, but sometimes they will want some consideration (gold, tech, luxeries, etc)

The funny thing is that I DID have a peace agreement with 5 out of 6 civs... but those stupid Russians want EVERYTHING I've got... tech, gold, maps, everything! I gave the English a city just for peace and techs to the Germans... eventually the English and German sign ANOTHER alliance against me and everyone is just pissed off to no extent. I really hate those Russians...

The worse part is that in my diplomacy screen, I have NO option for a MPP or anything close to it. OH well... back to the war... I wonder if I can drag it out to retirement in 2050...

	02-12-2001 18:22									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Temujin69 The worse part is that in my diplomacy screen, I have NO option for a MPP or anything close to it. OH well... back to the war... I wonder if I can drag it out to retirement in 2050...

You'll need a Nationalism to sign MPPs.
(gives a nice Riflemen, no need for Saltpeter, Draft...)

	03-12-2001 03:02									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Temujin69 The funny thing is that I DID have a peace agreement with 5 out of 6 civs... but those stupid Russians want EVERYTHING I've got... tech, gold, maps, everything! I gave the English a city just for peace and techs to the Germans... eventually the English and German sign ANOTHER alliance against me and everyone is just pissed off to no extent. I really hate those Russians... The worse part is that in my diplomacy screen, I have NO option for a MPP or anything close to it. OH well... back to the war... I wonder if I can drag it out to retirement in 2050...

You needed to head this off before everyone went to war with you. Now they are p*ssed. Very hard to get them to agree to anything.

Peace agreements mean squat. They are almost the default. The AI is smart, it does not go to war unless it has something it can gain. Most agreements have a duration during which there are penalties to break them, not Peace. Peace expires the next time War is declared, very obviously, but the game is prompting you to know that there is no period of enforced Peace. Again, Peace means squat.

You needed to get on the diplo-pony the moment war was declared (or imminent). Actually, you need to be the on diplomatic road show right from the beginning so that other civs are positively disposed towards you. In my current game I was dealt the second weakest possible starting position (try beaing Roman on an Island with no Iron). I was very weak for a very long time (ie I was an agression magnet). However, no AI ever declared war on me. Now I am the most powerful (after getting everyone in the game to go to war with the then No. 1). I got all the cities and good city sites.

You do have an interesting situation. If you can manage to turn it around and finish the game you will have gained invaluable experience in either influencing the AI civs diplomatically, or in Civ3 combat (both strategic and tactical).

There is much more to both diplomancy and combat than many people are granting credit for. My hat is definitely off to the designers. I'm not even as p*ssed by corruption as I once was, since I've begun to find my way around it (it could still be toned down a bit though).

	03-12-2001 04:01									#10
	Corrections Increase Your PM Length

Hi all,

Just noticed a couple things that needed correcting....

quote: . Just don;t forget to pull your units out of the city first or their ownership will also be transferred.

This is not true. If you give another civ one of your cities, any units you have in that city will be transfered back to your capital in the exchange

(i really hate this, since it means there is absolutely NO WAY to give another civ units... *sigh*)

secondly...

quote: You'll need a Nationalism to sign MPPs.

Yes, you need nationalism... you need something else tho, and that would be an Embassy in the capital of each of the other civs. without an embassy, alliances, MPPS, and their like are not possible. Only trading.

hope that helps a bit... sounds like yer in a really tough spot!! all of the suggestions here could work to some degree, it depends on what kind of military force you have left compared to your main agressors.

Z

	03-12-2001 20:35									#11
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It sounds like you've hit the point where no matter what you do, the AI's gonna be mad at you anyway. If you don't have embassies yet, and it sounds like you don't, you might wanna make sure you get them.

I think the trick is still appease civs when you declare war with someone -- keep the ones that you're not warring with happy with you (or get them to war the guy you're warring with). If you don't do anything, chances are you'll get gangbanged.

	03-12-2001 20:37									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

MPPs are not as important as alliances, which do not need Nationalism. Even if you sign an MPP, that's not a guarantee that the civilization you signed it with will not attack you! Here's how this breaks down.

1) You sign MPP with France (or somebody) whilst engaged in a war with Russia.
2) Russia does not attack your units (on your land) for a few turns (so MPP does not activate).
3) Russia signs alliance against you with France. This dissolves the MPP with no real impact against France, especially if you gave one-shot enticements for the MPP.

I've had this happen, so I know it works. MPPs are a big, fat waste of your time AND they tend to get you entangled in foreign wars you don't really give a damn about (remember WWI?). Instead, get France to sign an alliance against Russia with you. This guarantees that France will go on the attack against Russia immediately AND it makes Russia pissed off with France, so that subsequent friendly diplomacy between those countries becomes less likely. Alliances are available as soon as you have Writing and an embassy, and should be your primary diplomatic tool.

Also of primary importance: trade per-turn goods for long-term agreements. This maximizes the hit your allied country takes for breaking the agreement. If you trade tech for an alliance, the civ doesn't suffer much if it breaks the agreement. If you're trading goods or gold, they have an ongoing incentive to maintain the treaty.

	03-12-2001 20:43									#13
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I agree with bad ax there, and I've done the exact thing he talked about.... Russia, which is stronger than me militarily, declared on me. I got to France right away, gave them cash, and got them to fight the Russians with an alliance. 10 turns later, I declared peace with Russians (got a bad rep for doing it) and the French slugged with the Russians for maybe another 200 years or so, keeping them busy while I expanded.