01-12-2001 22:17									#1
	Uncooperative maps, any suggestions? Increase Your PM Length

Started a game last week as the Babylonians. Small world, random continents, random time.

Turns out, the randomness was a major issue in terms of expansion being effective.

Wound up on 2nd largest continent with the Romans and Greeks. Starting position - no rivers or lakes within 10 tiles. Further expansion of the continent revealed only one river and a single, one-tile lak on the entire continent with the river being attached to same lake and only 5 tiles long.

What's the problem? Only 2 cities on the continent were even capable of being irrigated for a LONG time.

This severely hampers city growth (for the eventual switch to republic) and the whole despot pop-rush strategies.

Meanwhile, the largest continent was buried in rivers which the French exploited long before they were even discovered.

Any suggestions on how to deal with this kind of map?

	01-12-2001 22:59									#2
	Got spare money?

1. Irrigation under despotism is quite useless, unless on food resource tiles or on flood plains. So why worry so much about it?

2. Irrigating 10 tiles doesn't take a long time, considering that it will be a while before you reach Monarchy or Replublic when irrigation will become useful.

3. Think about the plus side: if you can control the areas around the sole lake and river system on the continent, the other 2 AI civs will be deprived of irrigation: a major advantage to you.

4. However, if the sole source of fresh water is blocked from the majority of your cities by hills and mountains, consider re-starting.

Suggestion:

1. Secure the freshwater source by building a city next to it.

2. Build a chain of cities leading from the freshwater source to the rest of your empire so that the AI can't build cities in between.

3. Start irrigating the tiles near the river, and build the irrigation corridor back to your main empire NOW.

4. Make sure that the AI civs can't connect to the irrigation system by not irrigating the tiles next to their borders

	02-12-2001 00:08									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

Should've added a mountain chain deprived over 3/4 of the continent from the lone fresh water source.

Being on a small map, securing the source and having such a small area (1/4 of a continent on a small map isn't much space) in which to build wasn't much help.

The problem was maintaining population levels outside of that area even after reaching Monarchy and/or Republic.

Meanwhile, the French are taking over the world.

Restarting seemed like the most sensible solution, but was just wondering if anyone had any other ideas. Thanks.

	02-12-2001 06:39									#4
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I only look for irrigation if I have a buttload of plains. Grassland is fine without it, but plains really need it. If I have 3-5 grassland around a city, at least up to the middle age, that city can be a production powerhouse (a few mines and bam!). It should be able to churn out units pretty nicely.

	02-12-2001 12:23									#5
	Got spare money?

Yeah, Some maps can be a real pain. But sometimes these can turn into the best games, keeping in mind that your not going to set any high score if you do manage to pull off a win .

There is usually a way to pull out some kind of victory (on Monarach or less) or at least have a shot at it IF you can choose the right stadagy for the given map right at the beginning and you get a lucky break or two later in the game. Granted the method to victory may not be the one you prefer, but in a game with a bad start... take what u can get


For the case listed above I see 3 possible ways to win.

1) The least likely, If your capital is an a very good location for shields and is on the river, there is the possibility of getting a cultural victory with 20,000 points in a single city, but you need to grab some early wonders and 'pod boom' your capital to size 12 as soon as it can support that many without Anarchy.

2) Be nice to the french and early rush all you nieghbors on your contient, then try to play catch-up with the French.

3) Form an allaince with everyone on your contient, trade techs 'freely' with them. Try anything to slow France down without invading it (ie. trade embargos; priviteers; not tradeing techs, luxuries, and resources; and 'hit and raze tactics' if you do go to war with her). Then try to last till you can build the UN. Build it and have your long time allies vote for you. My guess would be this is the most likely way to pull out some kind of victory, but be prepared for some major defensive warfare.

Let us know how it goes

	02-12-2001 12:33									#6
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Unfortunately, I'd turned off Diplomatic Victory when starting this one, because those types of victories were too easy in all the prior games.

Looks like I'll have to try the 20,000 point cultural thing.

French have been the most friendly because of the early rush on the Greeks and Romans turning them into vassals. Rome had the fresh water city, so I took it and moved my palace there while building the FP on the opposite end of the continent.

Current plan - use espionage to find where the Wonders are and take those cities, then defend them with all of my abilities. Taking those cities should definitely help the culture thing and might even let me get footholds among the Russians and French. Don't really want to tick off the French, but gotta take those Culture points that Wonders generate.

Definitely plan to take the one city, then sue for peace.

FYI - as others have stated, production is not a problem on this map. The problems lie solely in maintaining population and generating income due to the severe lack of strategic resources on the continent. Just lots of horses, one cow, and one wheat on an entire continent.

Mines and roads are everywhere for those interested about the production/commerce issues. Commerce is an issue due to the lack of population.

Waging war - build up the necessary forces...take what I need...then disband forces other than those absolutely needed for defense. This is purely because of the commerce issues. Hopefully, taking some cities on the other continents will begin to alleviate this problem.

	03-12-2001 01:31									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by theohall Current plan - use espionage to find where the Wonders are and take those cities, then defend them with all of my abilities. Taking those cities should definitely help the culture thing and might even let me get footholds among the Russians and French. Don't really want to tick off the French, but gotta take those Culture points that Wonders generate.

I think that captured wonders don't generate culture, only ones that you build yourself. Can somsone confirm?

	03-12-2001 10:15									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Correct. Although caputured wonders still give you thier benefit they produce no culture.

As for this particular game... looks like choice 2 is the best option remianing

	03-12-2001 19:12									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by theohall Current plan - use espionage to find where the Wonders are and take those cities, then defend them with all of my abilities. Taking those cities should definitely help the culture thing and might even let me get footholds among the Russians and French. Don't really want to tick off the French, but gotta take those Culture points that Wonders generate.

Dont waste your gold!!! F7 will tell you which cities all the wonders are located in, espionage is not needed here!

( President Bush our intricate spy network has finally procured that The Pyramids are located in Egypt...!)

	03-12-2001 20:16									#10
	Inflate your Upload Space

See, on a small map this is still doable...

I started a game on a huge map, continents. I started out on my own island....except that the island can hold about 10 cities max, and that's it. By the time I got mapmaking and got the lighthouse (nothing was within galley distance without the lighthouse) everyone else was in the middle ages because they all traded. I tried playing more, doing a military strike to get a foothold on the large continent (with Germans, French, and English there). After a little while though, the cities I captured were both absorbed by the rival civs because I just don't have enough cities for a high culture rating, and the two captures cities were quite far from my capital. I did the rush building temple thing and had enough units in there, no good

So I can still try for the 20000 culture thing (100000 civ culture is out of the question). I had no strategic resources though on my little island, and that was really hampering me. At the same time, the AIs got a huge continent and are still building cities like crazy (I retired to see just how far behind I was). I just got bored of that game and restarted because it got to a point where all my land was improved upon and I don't want to IFE -- so nothing to do really.

Anyway, the point is, sometimes the map starting location can kill your game, especially if you play on a huge map where the difference between a good island and bad island is huge. You start on a small island and you're basically screwed because everyone else have basically unlimited space for expansion

	03-12-2001 20:26									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Bblue Correct. Although caputured wonders still give you thier benefit they produce no culture. As for this particular game... looks like choice 2 is the best option remianing

Yeah that's right. Can't comes up with a reason tho.

	04-12-2001 07:02									#12
	Remove this text

Thanks for all the assistance.

I couldn't find which key said where the Wonders were.

Bummer on captured Wonders not generating culture. If they continue to generate culture for the original creator when the creator owns them, why shouldn't they generate culture when captured? That just doesn't seem to make sense, but I won't waste any time there.

As to catching up to the French - I don't think that's going to be possible. Not enough strategic resources on the continent nor enough fresh water locations to support higher populations. Without the people, there isn't enough commerce. Without commerce, science and supporting a military are very difficult.

	04-12-2001 07:35									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by theohall Bummer on captured Wonders not generating culture. If they continue to generate culture for the original creator when the creator owns them, why shouldn't they generate culture when captured? That just doesn't seem to make sense, but I won't waste any time there.

I think that captured wonders do produce culture -- they just don't get the bonus for having been built for however long...

Might be wrong on that though...

-- adaMada

	04-12-2001 14:00									#14
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Bad starting positions will make a game much more difficult. Winning a game on emeror/deity with an excellent starting position is easier compared to a really bad starting position on warlord/regent. Starting on a Jungle Island with no strategic resources or surrounded by hills and mountains is not nice.

	04-12-2001 20:55									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

Some thoughts on this. I find that due to the delay in getting to build hospitals, cities get stuck at 12 for a long time anyway, so you could have a chance to catch up on population with the Civs that have lots of grass. With plenty of hills you can get very productive cities. You also have a lot of horses. That probably means that several other Civs don't have any. Early in the game, all the way up to the invention of tanks, horses rule. With productive cities and a stranglehold on the horse supply you can launch horse armies against those horseless Civs and raze their cities until they too become your vassals. They can then wage a proxy war against the French, which keeps the French busy while your relationship with them stays squeaky clean :-) You don't have to worry too much about defence at home as you have subjugated the others in your continent. With all the mountains, you could also have a lot of iron, so maybe there are Civs that don't have that which could be even easier to beat up. Alternatively, you could trade all the horses and iron and use all the cash to build stuff, giving you a high culture level. Don't forget also that by putting cities next to the sea, and building harbours, you can get two food for each sea square. And don't worry about the tech, just trade for it, and offset the costs by trading it to the other Civs. You want them all to be on a level playing field so the French are kept in check.

	05-12-2001 02:15									#16
	Got spare money?

Didn't get to play much the past couple of days, but a reply to the most recent post.

Horses were used to subjugate the continent. That part was easy. Only had 1 source of iron. It has been exhausted which hurt.

Have built cities with Harbors which has helped some, but not enough to create major income. Currently in the process of building more coastal cities so as to maximize the number or possible sea squares and generate some commerce to support the army.

There were only two civs on this continent. Turns out the Russians took out the Americans and Iroquois on another continent. It's now a 3 Civ game - Russia by themselves with Gold, Iron, and most of the luxury resources; French with the remaining luxury resources and Gold. This creates a problem in trading. My only luxury resource is incense and not generating enough income to get the French or Russians to trade. This is creating happiness problems for the newer cities when they reach 6 population. Having to create entertainers due to lack of commerce to support happiness facilities is killing growth with the lack of fresh water.

Trying to do anything militarily to the Russians or French involves moving troops across the seas. I did take one Russian city - it reverted back to Russia after 4 turns. So it's going to be darn near impossible to fight with the French or Russians until some commerce gets created somehow. Why commerce? If I can get a city on the opposition continent and rush-build the cultural facilities, I should be able to maintain a foothold. That's going to be a key I think to making this game work. Anxiously awaiting electricity so I can start irrigating my large island continent.

Diplomacy - I'm trying to get the French to ignore me and go after the Russians. If the French can get on the Russian continent, I should be able to get a city on the Russian continent near the French city and have time to develop it.

It's gotten interesting to say the least. Russians sued for peace after culturally recovering their city. I have no idea why. They are way more powerful than my little Civ - which happens to be on the smallest of the 3 continents. There are a couple of small islands which I've settled. Hoping strategic resources in the later ages will appear on them.

	05-12-2001 06:06									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by adaMada I think that captured wonders do produce culture -- they just don't get the bonus for having been built for however long... Might be wrong on that though... -- adaMada

Captured wonders produce 0 culture, trust me I have several. However, Hanging Gardens (& possibly others) do work after they are captured, even if they should be obsolete - a bug.

	05-12-2001 07:13									#18
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

One method that seems to work in terms of narrowing the gap a little is sending a few horsemen (or newer units) into their land and pillaging the roads and mines on resource spaces. It doesn't hurt to capture and disband the odd worker as well. I realize it doesn't get the resources for you, but it does tend to creat disorder and serious problems for the enemy, and maybe give you a chance to get a foothold near some real resources. A long shot, maybe, but I have this foolish tendency to try to stick it out on any map, until I quite obviously have no hope. Also, if you manage to capture a city that you won't be able to keep due to culture, raze it, so their culture drops. If you have your back to the wall, try to reduce their power and give yourself some time. I doubt genghis khan got much in the way of culture, and all he had were horses. It also never hurts to foment a little war between the more powerful civs. If you don't raze the city, consider giving it to someone in exchange for luxuries or strategic resources. The AI is usually willing to sell its soul for a city.They will probably end up going to war, and you will get some of the resources you need. You can do many things if you capture one city, which is almost always possible for at least one turn. Don't get caught in the "capture and build" mindset. Every city is a diplomatic tool, especially the cities of your enemies.

	05-12-2001 08:54									#19
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

good plan arborman on the cities. I actually fomented some hate and discontent this evening.

On one turn, I took a Russian and French city. Next turn - sue for peace. Then sold them to each other. Result was over 200 gold/turn for 20 years, 5 techs and a 1200 gold lump sum payment.

That should fund the military long enough to establish a foothold on one of the continents. Just trying to decide if I go after the French or the Russians.

Conquest might actually be possible this way.

	05-12-2001 15:29									#20
	Got spare money?

Good strategy, I think you will find that if they have a city on each others continents and none on yours, they will be at war with each other before long.

	07-12-2001 07:59									#21
	Got spare money?

Update - Victory in 1960 by Conquest. Score wasn't too hot, but I did manage to win.

arborman's plan with some tweaking worked very well.

After selling the cities, built up a large navy and large army. Decided to invade the Russian land since it was larger. 1st thing - conquered all the cities surrounding the French city on the continent. Why? To keep telling the French to go home and stay in their own territory. When 20 years were up - sold a city on my homeland which only had a harbor and temple, but was bordered by 3 high culture cities - got the income for 20 turns and the city back in 5 turns. Kept repeating this as I took over the Russian continent.

Complete conquest of the Russians occurred just as the Industrial age ended. The French, being hemmed in on their smaller continent and continually being told to go home when trying to go to war with the Russians weren't keeping up technologically. Once the Russians fell, it was just a matter of time since I had all but 2 of the non-luxury strategic resources.

Thanks arborman for the sound advice and thanks to all for the ideas.

Don't give up on bad maps. They are great learning experiences.

	07-12-2001 09:58									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Captured wonders produce no culture. And all culture-generating improvements are destroyed when you acquire a foreign city (by whatever means).

quote: Originally posted by adaMada I think that captured wonders do produce culture -- they just don't get the bonus for having been built for however long... Might be wrong on that though... -- adaMada