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Dry
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Brussels
Sep 2000
time: 06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
About Israel I will abstain, it's a difficult thing and the history of my own country does not allow me to express freely what I think. I would probably not only been called a racist, but worse, if I did.
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I am always sad when I hear 'young' Germans saying that. I have spoken with some Germans about it and I am sad that they still feel ashame of something that their parents did, not them.
It is good to remember it, to never forget, but it is not good to be still prisoner of it. Especially if you are not guilty.
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I first was against the US war in Afghanistan, but must admit after all, that it at least gave the Afghan people more freedom, while it missed (at this point) the proclaimed goal. But I won't call it "war against terrorism" like our media does. |
The difference, from my PoV, between afghanistan and Iraq?
The help. When you say you come to 'liberate' a country from a dictator, you need to help this country to get up again.
For the first time since very, very long (ww2), I have the feeling that the US are doing something good: they liberate Afghanistan from Taliban and they demonstrate with acts - and not only words - that the Afghan people were not ennemies. As long as we will help Afghanistan to rebuild itself, we will stay humans.
But only time will tell us if we do it for free or if we (or the US) have something else in mind...
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Serb, don't count on me as an ally too much. I am not a trustworthy ally at this point. I may have a special relationship with Russia, because I lived in Russia for 5 years and can rightful say that I know it, but I will not defend Russia where I believe Russia is wrong. All I will do is to express my opinion. |
I am glad that you took my advice and distanced. I do not want that some people here may count you as an ally of such crazy Russian as I am. 
Seriously speaking I’ve not expected that you will be agreed with my opinion. I know that is useless, no one here is able to understand why we are doing it, to be able to understand it, I suppose people must went through it by itself, it is impossible to describe.
I’m just curious, which years you lived in Russia? I supposed in times of first Chechen campaign? I can assure there is very little common between those two campaigns. Chechens who fight against us during first campaign are fighting on our side during the second, for example today’s chief of Chechen’s administration- Kadyrov and major of Grozny – Gantamirov are both veterans of first campaign and they fought against us in first campaign.
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I wasn't really gone, just lurking for quite a time. |
Quit for a smoke?
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I tend to agree with Arrian, the US policy (and the policy of their vassals in Western Europe) has always been dominated by self-interest, not principle. |
Absolutely. They also are doing ‘do not do anything’ without profit.
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And this is probably why they turned away and whistled, while Russian tanks flattened Grosny. |
What they can do else? I supposed nuclear war it is not what they want.quote:
They have no benefit from an independent Chechnya. |
I suppose that they do not have benefit from disintegration of SU too?
May be they has no benefit from an independent Chechnya. But Chechnya as base for terrorists and bustards of all kinds, from all corners of the world who constantly attacks southern Russia’s territory- is the thing they were interested in. I suppose, you as being an experienced Civ player, should know that everything that weakened you opponent is makes you stronger. Try to think logically, find who is the major opponent of Russia, who want to see weakened Russia and you’ll find who was interested in establishing of terrorist state in Chechnya.
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And Russia is still too mighty to be treated like Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq. The right is at the side of the strong. |
You see, you used words ‘still too mighty’ not simply 'too mighty'
Kak govoritsya- ne dojdetes, my eshe vas perejivem.
May be I’ve translated it wrong, you know that I have problems with my english?
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I first was against the NATO intervention in former Yugoslavia and had to agree later, that it was not so bad after all. But I won't call it a "peacekeeping mission" as our media does. And I vehemently deny the word "humanitary bombardements" (not a joke!) that went through our media at this time. |
Well, I suppose that being the guy who like history, you should know that since times of WW2 allies (USA, Brits) dreamed about their military presence on Balkans and their dreams might become true only after collapse of SU. Can you imagine such ‘humanitarian bombardments"
in times when SU and Warsaw Pact existed?
I suppose that many people may start/or started long ago to call me a Russian idiot who still lives with Cold’s war vision of the world. I don’t care I know that I am not. To those guys I must say that, as you called them- “self-interests” of any country including military interests too. And any country of the world has its military interests ALWAYS, no matter is it peaceful period of time or Cold war.
I’m agree with you that "peacekeeping mission" are not the proper words, as for me “ an establishing of military bases” are much closer.
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I first was against the US war in Afghanistan, but must admit after all, that it at least gave the Afghan people more freedom, while it missed (at this point) the proclaimed goal. But I won't call it "war against terrorism" like our media does. |
Well, we was first who started to support of Northern alliance, and our president was the first leader who send his regrets about what happen Sept. 11 to American people, we’ve understand their feelings very good. We were not against this war. Well, our position was dominated by self-interest, as I’ve typed earlier we know very good what type of regime Taliban is, the same was established in Chechnya when we left it in 1996, but the major reason why we were interested in destruction of Taliban’ regime because it was the major sponsor of Chechen terrorists. I’m still do not understand why you think that Americans done good thing because- “that it at least gave the Afghan people more freedom’ while you think that we done bad thing when we done the same in Chechnya. Are you think that for Chechen people is better to live under fundamentalist regime like the Taliban which was established after we’ve lost first campaign and were forced to leave Chechnya in 1996, then to live under democracy which was re-established when we return? I don’t see any logic in that.
If you thinking that main goal of this operation were to kill or to capture ObL, then you are mistaken, I can assure you. He is not some kind of unique Evil genius like Dr. No in films about J. Bond. He is one single soldier in army of world’s terrorists this army has many people like him. The goal was to destroy regime created ‘by terrorists for terrorists’, and this goal was achieved.
Last edited by Serb on 12-02-2002 at 18:01
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Rosacrux
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In a Galaxy far, far away...
Oct 2001
time: 05:16
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Quite an interesting conversation here. Yes, Arrian is right about the motivation, but he gets this from a US perspective. I am trying to look at it from an international perspective.
Which brings us to... Serb
Lovely nickname
Allthough I have to disagree with some points you make (especially about Chechnya - the whole ethnic cleansing thing was 90% russian propaganda) but I won't be too anxious answering them. We disagree and we can agree on that
But this has to be answered:
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Look at yourself people, what have you done in Kosovo? Do you know anything about history of this land? I suppose you don't. Kosovo was Serbian territory for thousand years. Serbian Christian churches in Kosovo count UNESCO as world cultural treasures. There never was Muslims on this land. Before SU collapsed (yah… I know that I've started again my favorite song) so, before SU collapsed in Kosovo lived about 4% of Albanians and after SU fell all his satellites fell also. It was hard times for Yugoslavia, but even in hard times Serbs welcomes Albanian refuges and let them to settle down on Serbian lands. Few years later those guests declare theirs rights on this land as its own and yours countries help them to wipe out the native, Serbian population of Kosovo. With your help in 1999 albanians drive out Serbs from Kosovo. Today Albanians are representing the absolutely majority of Kosovo's population. Isn't it the same for what you've wanted to bring Sharon into international court for his crimes against humanity? |
I am living in the neighborhood and I have very good relationship with Serbs (unlike Albanians...) and I am telling you this to understand more of my POV. I've been in Yugoslavia and Albania and I've particulary been to Kossovo.
Albanian population is the majority in Kossovo since 1910, not since 1992. The rest is bullshit. Albanian previous 1992 population is Kossovo was 75% of the whole, and after 1996 it was 85% - NOT a huge difference by any account.
The fact that Kossovo is the "Serbian outpost" in the Balkans is right. It's where the first Serbian hegemon was crowned, where the first Serb kingdom established. It has allways been kind of a "Holy Mound" for the Serbs. That's irrelevant though to the fact that Milosevich did perform a (limited, nothing like the western media tried to present) ethnic cleansing operation.
And the West didn't get into Yugoslavia only in 1998 - hell, western forces are there since 1993! In Bosnia, namely.
Oh, and another point. About Russia being a potential ally to USA... well, you got it wrong Serb. Russia wishes to join the "western world". Putin looks particulary anxious to do so, actually. And I think all his "let's work out" rubish looks very much like a fashion quite popular in the West a couple of decades ago.
So, he'll do anything to approach the West and lure in Western capital to help build up a ravaged economy. If that includes an alliance to the USA... it won't be the first time, right?
Sir Ralph
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I first was against the US war in Afghanistan, but must admit after all, that it at least gave the Afghan people more freedom, while it missed (at this point) the proclaimed goal. But I won't call it "war against terrorism" like our media does. |
Likewise here. I think that the US intervention while serving more complex geopolitical goals than the "WOT", it was conducted pretty wisely, leaving the locals (ie The Northern Alliance) to do the "dirty work" and "liberate" the country from the Taleban rule. Very wisely executed, if you ask me.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Rosacrux
Which brings us to... Serb
Lovely nickname |
I’ve already typed about origin of my nickname. It has nothing common with nationality.
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…especially about Chechnya - the whole ethnic cleansing thing was 90% russian propaganda |
Of course, like devastated civilians building in Moscow, Kyzlyar, like invasion of terrorists in Dagestan. It’s all propaganda to cover crimes of still mighty Empire of evil that invade small but honorable republic.
I’ve suppose the victims of remaining ten percents might be disagreed with your pov, if they were alive.
If you feel that you cannot convince that your pov is true it is too easy to say that pov of yours opponent is just propaganda.
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I am living in the neighborhood and I have very good relationship with Serbs (unlike Albanians...) |
It’s strange. I’ve thought that you are ‘In a Galaxy far, far away’. Already returned ?
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Albanian population is the majority in Kossovo since 1910, not since 1992. The rest is bullshit. Albanian previous 1992 population is Kossovo was 75% of the whole, and after 1996 it was 85% - NOT a huge difference by any account. |
Ok, ok may be I have wrong information about numbers. I’ll be not arguing with you before I check the facts. I’m just curious about few things:
1) How long this land belongs to Serb’s
2)What happen in 1910?
3)What makes Serb’s to leave their holy grounds in 1910 and why Albanians become majority of Kossovo population.
4)How many Serb’s live today in Kossovo, and most important how do they live?
5)Do Serb’s have their cultural monuments and churches? How many Albanian churches here, how old those churches?
6)Don’t you think that you solve this problem with in proper way?
7)And finally, the most important thing the thing I wanted to said in that post: don’t you think that this whole situation may end one day like nowadays war of Israel vs. Palestine? As I know one of the problems there is Jerusalem’s status which contains holy places for both Arabs and Judies. Don’t you think that some day Serb’s decide to return their holy places?
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Oh, and another point. About Russia being a potential ally to USA... well, you got it wrong Serb. Russia wishes to join the "western world". |
I’ve got it right. We want to join western world. You are not ready yet to let us in, and you don’t want to let us in. As I remember this talk was about that NATO is the military opponent of SU/Russia. You want to convince me that this is not true? If you are not treating us as Empire of evil anymore then you’ve have to dismiss this organization or if this organization has different purposes you have to let us in.
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So, he'll do anything to approach the West and lure in Western capital to help build up a ravaged economy. If that includes an alliance to the USA... it won't be the first time, right? |
I’ve already explained why alliance with USA in this war was in self-interests of Russia, I only want to hope that this time alliance do not ends like it was in first time.
Last edited by Serb on 12-02-2002 at 21:13
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Serb, I think nobody in the EU or NATO does not even think about Russia sharing the fate of Yugoslavia. But we would better like a stable and prosper Russia than one with conflicts and economical problems. |
Believe me this is all I want too. And I am sure that we must have common future, not only Russia needs Europe, but I hope that Europe needs Russia too. Btw, by fate of Yugoslavia I've mean- disintegrated country.
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So once the Chechens don't wish to be a part of Russia, why don't you let them go? Heck, it's a crumble at your map. Hey, but a crumble with oil, you may respond... So you are also not better than the United States. |
 What? They have oil? Do you know exactly how much? Our Siberian deposits almost depleted.
Do you really think that we are so greedy? Having the world’s largest deposits of oil in Siberia and fight for Chechen deposits too? I am tired to say it again and again: we let them go after their kick our asses in first campaign, they were free to anything, the end of this story is known I don’t want it to type it again.
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Does it make me look old if I say, that I was 1978-82 in the Soviet Union and personally have seen 4x5 meters large Brezhnev portraits hanging everywhere? I visited Russia now and then, but in the last years I didn't. Last time I was in Novosibirsk, that was February 1994. |
Novosibirsk is pretty close to place where I live, never was in Omsk?
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Ironikinit
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To an American, 100 years is a long time.
To a European, 100 miles is a long way.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
According to my records they do. |
It was a joke, of course I know what we have an oil deposits in Chechnya, but it is far not the largest source of black gold on our territory.
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No. Russians are all but greedy. |
Sometimes I regret about this fact.
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Sorry I missed that. But to give them some half-hearty autonomy and to let them go are 2 different things though. |
Of course it is 2 different things. When I said that they were free to do anything It mean exactly what I've said, for the period of time 1996-1999 it was not some kind of an autonomy they were ABSOLUTELY not controlled, they formed their state- fundamentalist state, Taliban's type state. They do not lived by our laws, they has their own laws based on physical punishment for crimes, they have irregular band formations- as we called it, they called it an army, they have their own flag, they do not paid taxes to Russian budged, their have their own budget, they used slavery, we are abolished slavery in 1861, and the most important- there were no single Russian soldier or police officer in Chechnya for that period of time. Chechnya remains part of Russia only on paper, "de fucto" it was not.
Ok, question for everyone!
Explain to my please, what else needed to call one nation living on one territory to be independent from another nation living on another territory?
Answer this question please.
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No. And I'm always cautious if a Russian or American tells me, that something is pretty close. For me is pretty close, what I can reach within 2 hours in my car. For them, what they can reach in this time by plane. |
It is the second biggest city in Siberia, but perhaps you right about plane, it's 800 km on the west from Novosibirsk.
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Willem
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Canada
Dec 2001
time: 00:16
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I'm really enjoying this opportunity of discussing current events and history with people from around the world. It's so easy to look at life through the eyes of our own cultures, and especially our media, so I find it fascinating to read the point of view of other people living our future history, and compare their observations with my own.
So I was wondering if any of you could recommend a good forum that I could participate in. I know I can do a search for one, and I have, but I usually end up spending a lot of time just wading through crap and feeling like I've wasted my time. So do any of you have a discussion site that you enjoy, where at least some of the people can go beyond rambling about the mundane aspects of life?
And much as I like playing Civilization, I put that in the same category. I'd like an opportunity of discussing philosophies, future trends, past trends, the impact of technology on all our lives etc., etc. Things that actually mean something in our lives.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
That's what, 480 miles? Even for an American like me, that fails to qualify as "close." But yeah, in general our idea of distance is quite different from our friends across the pond. The English side of my family tends to be amazed at what we consider to be "relatively nearby." I think that tends to be even more true of Americans in the middle of the country (midwest) than New Englanders like me (their states are a LOT bigger, with less people).
-Arrian
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I think it’s time to bring apologizes. I do not want to offend anyone. I am not a rude bustard. I thought sir Ralph as man long lived in my country understand me properly. I think I should explain what I’ve mean when I said that is “pretty close to place where I live”. You see, Russia has little different territorial division then USA. We have 89 states, and every state (subject of federation) is in fact a big city in center of surrounding territory. The major part of population of this state is live in this central city. There are no two equal populated cities in on state (subject of federation). In most of the cases the name of the state is equal to the name of this city, for example Novosibirsk state is the subject of federation, the central city of this state is Novosibirsk, it’s not called a capital of the state (like in USA for example) it is just the biggest city in this region, a dozen times more populated then any other, and because of it entire state has it’s name.
When I’ve said that “it is pretty close to place where I live” I do not mean that 800 km is short distance, (actully I've typed it wrong the distance is about 600km). I’ve mean that I live in nearest big city, that I live in neighbor state (the subject of federation). Excuse me once again for that line, I’ve really do not thought that it might offend somebody.
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p.s. I hate prevocative rhetoric. "Axis of Evil?" George, ya gotta be kiddin' me. What IDIOT in the White House staff cleared that line? Open mouth, insert foot. |
Sorry, I am not sure that I understand you properly, can you say the same with other words. What does it mean -'Open mouth, insert foot'?
Last edited by Serb on 13-02-2002 at 11:35
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Willem
Well I'm pleased that you're so confident. Personally I think there's still a long way to go before we see the end of it. Al Qaeda and the Taliban seem to be just the tip of the iceberg, just two aspects of a world wide network. The terrorists may be on the run now, but they're certainly not beaten. They'll go into hiding for awhile, then they'll be back, and no doubt a little smarter next time. |
Execuse me, do you have psionic abilities?
You just reading my mind. I am absolutely agree with you. I think that the war not over, I think it's even a started yet. I just said that the Taliban lost control under Afghanistan and as I see it, this was the goal of war in Afghanistan. Of course terrorists are not beaten yet, as you said it was just the tip of the iceberg. But I am also absolutly sure that further actions in war against worldwide terrorism must be different then it was in Afghanistan. I think that if USA will start to use "war against terrorism" as cover to achive some of their self-interests goals and will start bombardments of Iraq, Iran or any other country, it might have very bad consequences, very bad. I really hope they chose different way.
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Frankly, I think as long as the situation in Israel remains as it is, this issue will never go away. If the world wants to defeat terrorism, they're going to have to put pressure on Israel to finally make some concessions to the Palestinians. The conflict has become a strong symbol for the fundamentalists in their struggle against the "decadent" West. Until there's peace in that area, there will always be fuel for their fire. |
Perhaps you right again, this conflict become a symbol, and it must be solved. But I'm not sure that it will be suficient to end the worldwide terrorism as decease of 21 century. The entire system of relationship between the "golden billion" and the rest of the world must be changed, if we want to end this war with small casulties.
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:16
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Serb, Chechnya has never been as independent from Russia, as the members of the British Commonwealth are from the UK. It has had some kind of "local autonomy" with no international rights, without an own foreign policy, a regular army (not talking about rebels) etc.
What concerns the might of Her Majesty the Queen over Canada and Australia, she has no more power than in her own country, and that is practically zero. It's not like in the United States or in Russia, where the President is the head of the government. Most European countries have a government with a Prime minister (in Germany it's Chancellor Schroeder) as leader for the executive power, and either a President (in Germany that's Johannes Rau) or a (constitutional) Monarch for representation only.
May be you ask Willem, if he feels that Canada is controlled by UK? At the same time, Russia always had it's thumb at Chechnya.
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siredgar
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New York, NY
Nov 2001
time: 00:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Willem
I'm really enjoying this opportunity of discussing current events and history with people from around the world. It's so easy to look at life through the eyes of our own cultures, and especially our media, so I find it fascinating to read the point of view of other people living our future history, and compare their observations with my own.
So I was wondering if any of you could recommend a good forum that I could participate in. I know I can do a search for one, and I have, but I usually end up spending a lot of time just wading through crap and feeling like I've wasted my time. So do any of you have a discussion site that you enjoy, where at least some of the people can go beyond rambling about the mundane aspects of life?
And much as I like playing Civilization, I put that in the same category. I'd like an opportunity of discussing philosophies, future trends, past trends, the impact of technology on all our lives etc., etc. Things that actually mean something in our lives. |
Can you say the same for the differing viewpoints of the Canadian figure skating pair and the Russian judge? 
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12-02-2002 15:36
We get that same sort of reaction from Europeans here in Canada as well.
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