19-04-2002 19:10									#661
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quote: BTW spiffor I hope you understand my little jest was not aimed at you in any way. It was merely an illustration.

No problem. I attacked the bad image of the Americans abroad, in a general point of view, it was not targetted at you, as you're not arrogant/ignorant, even if you strongly support US policy. You answered with the bad image of Europeans abroad, without targetting me. We think the same way

	19-04-2002 20:17									#662
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor No problem. I attacked the bad image of the Americans abroad, in a general point of view, it was not targetted at you, as you're not arrogant/ignorant, even if you strongly support US policy. You answered with the bad image of Europeans abroad, without targetting me. We think the same way

One point that occurred to me that is relevant to your post was that Americans have almost no access to viewpoints other than their own. Those with internet access can search out such information, but given that most Americans only speak english, their choices are extremely limited. This relative ignorance of other cultures is much more pronounced here than in Europe (for example) and it influences American policy choices. I am personally aware of some stunningly bad interpretations of events that occurred in the early 80's that I attributed to this problem.

	19-04-2002 20:50									#663
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You are rigth. THe principal problem of the north americans is only the continious contact with the north americans (because I´m an american habitant too.)

	19-04-2002 21:50									#664
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quote: Originally posted by godinex You are rigth. THe principal problem of the north americans is only the continious contact with the north americans (because I´m an american habitant too.)

But I think that you yourself have an advantage in this matter because of your Spanish culture as well as the anglo-culture.

	19-04-2002 22:40									#665
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I'm glad some sense of civility has returned to the thread.

	20-04-2002 00:16									#666
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Now your talking spence. I will have to agree with your whole last statement. i would even say to an extent that it is the same here in Canada although not quite so pronounced.

	20-04-2002 01:54									#667
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quote: Originally posted by lorddread A brief History Lesson Germany was forced into war with Russia for its very survival. As soon as Stalin signed the NonAgression Pact with Germany, he Informed his generals that they had 1 year to gear up for war. Stalin used the treaty as a way to stay out of the war until he had the forces to attack Germany. Thus endith the lesson KATN

I disagree. I've seen documentaries and read in the Time Magazine WWII Atlas (I am unsure of the title exactly, but I'm almost 100% sure it was done by Time Magazine) giving evidence to this theory:

Hitler's goal was to conquer the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe to colonize it with German people. He signed the Non-aggression pact to prevent the USSRs involvement until he was ready. Hitler assumed Britain and France wouldn't care and also he thought Britain would actually aid him (being that British are a good part Germanic origin). When Britain and France declared war over the invasion of Poland, Hitler was confused. But, he didn't worry about the British and the French. He simply rolled into France and bombed Britain. He figured Britain would either surrender or just make peace. Then, it was time to roll over the USSR. Which he did very well. But, he made the same mistake Napolean did. He neglected to provide his troops winter equipment. So, the USSR had a much easier time of countering the German invasion.

The German hate machine (all those "wonderful" people like Himmler, Goering, Hitler, Eichmann, etc.) viewed Slavs (most Eastern Europeans) as just a tiny bit above the Jews. The German army advanced and the (I forget the word in German) Death Squads followed to kill any "undesirables". <- That word was used in the book. "Undesirables" included not only Jews, but Slavs as well.

This is my info.

	20-04-2002 05:29									#668
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Stalin bent over backwards to appease Hitler before the invasion.
He offered nice trade deals, kept all his promises, didn't allow air mission to recon German territory, and would not even let his generals fortify or pull back a little from the border. They got creamed when Hitler did attack.

If Stalin's plan was as stated, there is no reason he would have ordered all this.

I am not defending Stalin - a worse mas murderer than Hitler.

	20-04-2002 10:53									#669
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Beren You've cited one source (for which I congratulate you (no sarcasm)) for your viewpoint. IF such numbers are accurate, I would agree that the civilian casualties from American bombing are too high. But let me make a few comments: This is not a scientific report. I'm a scientist, thats not science. The report makes no distinction between civilians and for example Taliban or Al queda forces. Since they dont wear uniforms they could easily be counted as "civilians". Given the large number of reporters from around the world that are present in Afghanistan, wouldnt you think that someone else would have reported this story. Given its potential significance it would be repeated ad infinitum by many news agencies. If there were only american reporters in Afghanistan you might make the claim that they're part of a coverup. But that is not the case.

First of all: this is a scientific report: By Mark Herold of the University of New Hampshire. You want to critize the report, give him a call (since you know the science world so well, it shouldn't be a problem: they are bound to have a connection with the university at your work site.)
Secondly: it does make a distinction: military victims of the bombing are not accounted.
Thirdly: There were next to no reporters in Taliban controlled Afghanistan on the time of the bombing. Now there are reporters around there, but now no more people are dying.
Fourtly: this report is not given attention, because the most of us simply don't care how much people died in Afghanistan.
Fifthly: The number given was only what was provable. The real number, Herold says, is probably somewhere between 4000 and 5000.

	20-04-2002 16:12									#670
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quote: When Britain and France declared war over the invasion of Poland, Hitler was confused

I've seen a couple of documentaries that say that Hitler felt cheated by the circumstances surrounding the annexation of the Sudetanland because it was too easy. He apparently wanted friction over the issue so that he could start a the war then.

He wanted to get the situation with Britain and France resolved before the invasion of Russia, mainly humiliate the French and force Britain into an honourable peace. Once Britain and France were neutralised, diplomatically or militarily he could concentrate on the eastward expansion. When Britain didn't surrender/sue for peace, he was irate, and went ahead with the Russian invasion anyway.

I doubt we will ever know the inner thoughts of a madman, even Hitler said he would never let anyone know what he was thinking, or why he was acting in a particular fashion.

	20-04-2002 16:59									#671
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH While Heinz Guderian did visit the tank training facilities in Kazan, its pretty clear that the works of Captain B.H. Liddell Hart and Major-General J.F.C. Fuller were the catalyst for Guderian's ideas on tank warfare.

That's not completely true. Hart's theories played less of a role, although Hart changed the English edition of Panzer Leader to make himself look good.

The edition of Panzer Leader that I have states:

When in 1929 [Guderian] became convinced that tanks in combination with other weapons would revolutionize land warfare, it was from deep studies of history, recent British experiments, and the writings chiefly of British General JFC Fuller, not to the same extent as those of BH Liddell Hart, regardless of the third paragraph on page 20 (inserted in the English-language edition of Panzer Leader at Liddell Hart's own dogged suggestion) where Guderian acknowledges his "debt" to Liddell Hart.

	20-04-2002 17:04									#672
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quote: Originally posted by Beren First of all: this is a scientific report: By Mark Herold of the University of New Hampshire. You want to critize the report, give him a call (since you know the science world so well, it shouldn't be a problem: they are bound to have a connection with the university at your work site.)

I did check him out at the UNH to make sure he was legit. The fact that he works at a university doesnt make this science. Literary works of fiction or non-fiction are not science. Tags like "scientific report" are added to such works to improve their apparent veracity.

quote: Secondly: it does make a distinction: military victims of the bombing are not accounted.

It was hard for me to get through the entire diatribe, but I couldnt find any distinction made by the author. Here's one example.

quote: 1. The Taliban claimed the raid killed 11 people; 2. The Pentagon said the strike missed both the hospital and another Red Crescent building nearby, and commented "it was a legitimate terrorist target, intentionally struck.." 3. Journalist later saw a large crater in the center of the clinic and hospital vehicles crushed by collapsed masonry. One doctor reported 15 dead and 25 seriously injured.32 Faced with such discrepancies, to me the most credible source is the doctor: 15 died. .

i.e. no distinction between military and civilian casualties.

quote: Thirdly: There were next to no reporters in Taliban controlled Afghanistan on the time of the bombing. Now there are reporters around there, but now no more people are dying

You dont think that Geraldo Rivera would love to get his hands on a story about the thousands of uncounted civilian casualties?

Where are the numbers coming from?

quote: My assumption is that reporters, news story editors, and national-level media outlets try to report as accurately as possible given the resources at their disposal. For example, if The Times of India, reports an incident, I am assuming that an editor judged the account to be accurate.

I have personal experience that that is utterly false. Every day during the Iran-Iraq war their newsagencies would report the most outlandish lies. Despite what is quoted above the author subsequently states

quote: I have avoided granting greater reliability to U.S. or British sources -- the ethnocentric bias.

So what are his main sources?

quote: Specifically, I have relied upon Indian daily newspapers [especially The Times of India, considered the equivalent of The New York Times], three Pakistani dailies, the Singapore News, British, Canadian and Australian [Sydney Morning Herald, Herald Sun] newspapers, the Afghan Islamic Press [AIP based in Peshawar], the Agence France Press [AFP], the South African Broadcasting Corp. News [ www.sabcnews.com ], Pakistan News Service [PNS], and Reuters, BBC News Online, Al Jazeera,

Not too ethnocentric eh?

I searched through about ten of the links on the site for some "hard" reporting. I only stories about personal tragedies and quotes that cited this same work as their source.

quote: Fourtly: this report is not given attention, because the most of us simply don't care how much people died in Afghanistan. Fifthly: The number given was only what was provable. The real number, Herold says, is probably somewhere between 4000 and 5000.

Beren.

I can understand why you might think this is true of Americans (even though its not). But do you really accept that the Europeans dont care?

	20-04-2002 17:19									#673
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai That's not completely true. Hart's theories played less of a role, although Hart changed the English edition of Panzer Leader to make himself look good. The edition of Panzer Leader that I have states: When in 1929 [Guderian] became convinced that tanks in combination with other weapons would revolutionize land warfare, it was from deep studies of history, recent British experiments, and the writings chiefly of British General JFC Fuller, not to the same extent as those of BH Liddell Hart, regardless of the third paragraph on page 20 (inserted in the English-language edition of Panzer Leader at Liddell Hart's own dogged suggestion) where Guderian acknowledges his "debt" to Liddell Hart.

Are you claiming that Capt. Hart altered Guderian's text? My version is probably a little older than yours and the pages are different. In any case, Guderian clearly states the influence of the British authors (that appears to be around 1923-24). Other web sources state that he translated those works, suggesting he considered them quite important.

	20-04-2002 17:40									#674
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I'm not making the claim. The quote was from an introduction to the Penguin edition of Panzer Leader written by Kenneth Macksey in 1996.

The paragraph in question begin: "I learned from them the concentration of armour, as employed in the battle of Cambrai. Further, it was Liddell Hart who emphasized the use of armoured forces for long-range strokes..."

Macksey claims that Hart inserted that paragraph into the book.

	20-04-2002 18:02									#675
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I can understand why you might think this is true of Americans (even though its not). But do you really accept that the Europeans dont care?

I would like to see it otherwise, but frankly: yes, the most of the Europeans don't care either how much people died. They only care if there is video. Images have a much larger impact than just plain numbers.

And BTW: Maybe you are right and the report is not very accurate or indeed very unaccurate, but for me it is hard to believe that a (English) newspaper with quite a reputation for objectivity (The Guardian) did not check the report. (NRC (THE Dutch sophisticated daily paper) published it too, I don't know 'bout other papers.) I talked to an editor of the foreign page of NRC and he told me that Herold double-checked his information.

	20-04-2002 18:18									#676
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai I'm not making the claim. The quote was from an introduction to the Penguin edition of Panzer Leader written by Kenneth Macksey in 1996. The paragraph in question begin: "I learned from them the concentration of armour, as employed in the battle of Cambrai. Further, it was Liddell Hart who emphasized the use of armoured forces for long-range strokes..." Macksey claims that Hart inserted that paragraph into the book.

Interesting! My version is from 1967 (Ballantine Books) with only Liddel-Harts intro. I'll check when I get back home!

	20-04-2002 19:35									#677
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Tingkai

Preceeding paragraph

"It was principaly the works of the Englishmen, Fuller, Liddel Hart, and Martel, that excited my interest and gave me food for thought. These far-sighted soldiers were even then trying to make of the tank something more than just an infantry support weapon"

My text is all first person (Guderian speaking). Therefore I think its clear that he was clearly influenced at an early stage by the British (even if Liddel-Hart beefed up his importance).

	20-04-2002 19:51									#678
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quote: Originally posted by Beren I would like to see it otherwise, but frankly: yes, the most of the Europeans don't care either how much people died. They only care if there is video. Images have a much larger impact than just plain numbers. And BTW: Maybe you are right and the report is not very accurate or indeed very unaccurate, but for me it is hard to believe that a (English) newspaper with quite a reputation for objectivity (The Guardian) did not check the report. (NRC (THE Dutch sophisticated daily paper) published it too, I don't know 'bout other papers.) I talked to an editor of the foreign page of NRC and he told me that Herold double-checked his information.

Beren,

Without trying to sound too pompous, dont be too pessimistic about this. If the civilian casualties are that high (and are being hidden) it will come out and people will take notice.

	20-04-2002 23:04									#679
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Beren,

Let me ask you a question concerning your figures. Are you saying thousands of civilians were killed. If so let me state for the record you are incredibly wrong. Very few civilians were killed due to the fact that the US didn't bobm cities. We may have launched a few air to ground missiles at buildings but these are incredibly accurate. Just ask Saddam Hussein.

But let's say for the sake of arguing that 4000 civilians died. It is estimated that 3-4 million civilians (not including the 6 million Jews or the up to 3-8 million Soviets killed by the Russians) died in WWII. 1 million in Korea. 1-3 Million in Vietnam. 1000 in the Gulf War. I would say that war is getting more presise, wouldn't you?

How many people died in Yugoslavia during its 10 year war?

By the way, what's with all the America abshing coming from you? At least I can respect the dude from Siberia, he stands up for his country. All you do is espouse hate. It wouldn't be so bad if your facts were correct.

Keep up the good work!!!!

	21-04-2002 04:20									#680
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quote: 1000 in the Gulf War

We have probably different figures, I heard about more than 150.000 civilian Irakis being dead. I won't argue here if the Gulf War was right or not, but I will only argue taht there is no such thing as a "clean" war... even when the Americans wage it.

	21-04-2002 05:11									#681
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its not right, those figures come from the sanctions, though you can farm and boil water without trade. In closing:dont feed the trolls, and beren's source relies on Al Jazeera.

	21-04-2002 08:08									#682
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor We have probably different figures, I heard about more than 150.000 civilian Irakis being dead. I won't argue here if the Gulf War was right or not, but I will only argue taht there is no such thing as a "clean" war... even when the Americans wage it.

Are you out of your mind? 150,000 dead civilians? There weren't even that many Iraqi soldiers killed. This is what I can't stand about the "European" spin on history. It often makes no sense. Just like the news reports circulating Europe that the US killed 20,000 civilians in Afghanastan. WHen asked to verify that, the reporters found they couldn't. Why? Because it was made up. Imagine the embarrassment Belgium, German and BRitish news reporters felt. Must have not been too much becaause the exact same news services did it again except this time it was the Israeli's turn. Once again the news services couldn't back up their claims.

Now to correct your version of history.

The Iraqis made a HUGE fuss over when the smart bomb took out a bunker that had 40 civilians in it. I would love to know where you got 150,000 civilians killed. Bush Sr. would have been up on genocide charges.

Here again we see what happens when the truth is held hostage. A famous Soviet official once said: When you take away the people's believes, the danger is not that they will believe in nothing. The danger is they will believe anything.

Much like what is happening in Europe today.

	21-04-2002 19:22									#683
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Beren, Without trying to sound too pompous, dont be too pessimistic about this. If the civilian casualties are that high (and are being hidden) it will come out and people will take notice.

Are you saying truth always wins? Most people don't know how many deaths they caused. When these figures come out, people take notice and criticise it: see what happens on this forum. When there are no images avaiable people don't care. The crimes Assad committed in Syria are not commonly known, because he made sure no press was in the region or that the entire village was destroyed. His worst crimes are now known (we think) but most people don't take notice.
People don't trust information when there is no video avaiable.

You can of course always claim that the truth will always come out eventually. (Read what Karl Popper, has to say about this: it can't be attacked. A proposition is checkable, whenever it can't be united with certain events.)

BTW: It wouldn't be the first time American government committed some horrible lies to keep the coalition together.

	21-04-2002 19:36									#684
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quote: Originally posted by lorddread Beren, Let me ask you a question concerning your figures. Are you saying thousands of civilians were killed. If so let me state for the record you are incredibly wrong. Very few civilians were killed due to the fact that the US didn't bobm cities. We may have launched a few air to ground missiles at buildings but these are incredibly accurate. Just ask Saddam Hussein.

You did bomb cities: the buildings bombed were mainly in cities. And they claim their weapons are so precise, but they are not that good. I think all of you know at least a few stories about Red Cross posts bombed.
Clusterbombs are precise?
About Saddam: America lied how precise the weapons were. They were not as precise as we were told.

quote: Originally posted by lorddread But let's say for the sake of arguing that 4000 civilians died. It is estimated that 3-4 million civilians (not including the 6 million Jews or the up to 3-8 million Soviets killed by the Russians) died in WWII. 1 million in Korea. 1-3 Million in Vietnam. 1000 in the Gulf War. I would say that war is getting more presise, wouldn't you? How many people died in Yugoslavia during its 10 year war? By the way, what's with all the America abshing coming from you? At least I can respect the dude from Siberia, he stands up for his country. All you do is espouse hate. It wouldn't be so bad if your facts were correct. Keep up the good work!!!!

I give more facts: look in the last five pages I am the only one who did come up with something: a scientific report. (All right it was criticised, but hey, this is a discussion thread.)
I don't create hate (or whatever espouse means.) I disagree with your policies and I would like to convince you that you are doing the wrong thing. Is that a hateful act?
All right more people died in other wars, but all I was trying to say that America should have been more careful in Afghanistan. I would agree too much people died in these other wars too.

	21-04-2002 19:41									#685
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quote: Originally posted by lorddread Are you out of your mind? 150,000 dead civilians? There weren't even that many Iraqi soldiers killed. This is what I can't stand about the "European" spin on history. It often makes no sense. Just like the news reports circulating Europe that the US killed 20,000 civilians in Afghanastan. WHen asked to verify that, the reporters found they couldn't. Why? Because it was made up. Imagine the embarrassment Belgium, German and BRitish news reporters felt. Must have not been too much becaause the exact same news services did it again except this time it was the Israeli's turn. Once again the news services couldn't back up their claims. Now to correct your version of history. The Iraqis made a HUGE fuss over when the smart bomb took out a bunker that had 40 civilians in it. I would love to know where you got 150,000 civilians killed. Bush Sr. would have been up on genocide charges. Here again we see what happens when the truth is held hostage. A famous Soviet official once said: When you take away the people's believes, the danger is not that they will believe in nothing. The danger is they will believe anything. Much like what is happening in Europe today.

OK, he made a mistake. That's possible. Everybody makes mistakes.

I don't know entire Europe, but I DO believe in things, such as human rights, dignity of human life and peace.

	21-04-2002 20:38									#686
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so no one read my post, good to know. The 150k figure comes from the sanctions imposed on iraq, or that around that many people have died since the sanctions were imposed, now as to whether or not it is as a result of the sanctions, is up for debate. The iraqis sit on some of the more fertile growing land on the world in general and in the middle east in particular.

"but I DO believe in things, such as human rights, dignity of human life and peace."

As do we, which is why we are not indescriminately slaughtering civilians. If we really wanted a bunch of them dead we would not have sent food and medical supplies to the refuge camps in pakistan. There would have been several million dead if that were the case, as many of them chose to leave afghanistan(very good move) in preparation for our attack. this argument is getting old, so lets switch it over to this one: Do you feel what the US did in afghanistan, and what it will do in other countries, is wrong? We can only guess that you do, but you seem to be dodging this one. If you dont, then you are complaining for the sake of complaining, if you do, you dont care about the rights of the people in these countries who are being oppressed.

In both cases, Iraq and Afghanistan, those civilians that died did so because they chose to remain in these countries, even when the shooting started. No where in the Quran does it state that you have to remain in one place, and indeed it states to the contrary that if you do not like where you are there is no reason why you should not leave. God states something to the effect of "My earth is vast". And when you have over a months warning that a devistating attack by a bunch of really, really angry people will be happening, there is no excuse.

	21-04-2002 21:18									#687
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha "but I DO believe in things, such as human rights, dignity of human life and peace." As do we, which is why we are not indescriminately slaughtering civilians.

I understand that and that was not my point in the first place: I was refering to what somebody else said.

	21-04-2002 21:56									#688
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quote: Here again we see what happens when the truth is held hostage. A famous Soviet official once said: When you take away the people's believes, the danger is not that they will believe in nothing. The danger is they will believe anything.

exzactly!!! sounds like something that can be applied to you americans! Your government has the biggest and most sophiscated media machine in the world working for it! Twisting the truth and putting the US verision of the story in everyones heads. They choose what info is best heard and what is best kept secret. Everywhere else in the world this is a known thing but the people from america will fight to the death believing what their government tells them.

Now what is worse you tell me..opression by brainwashing like the american government does or opression from any other means? If you ask me its the same thing altho when be opressed by other means you still know the truth most of the time and are aloud to speak it, can't say as much about 95% of americans.

	21-04-2002 21:59									#689
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quote: Originally posted by lorddread Here again we see what happens when the truth is held hostage. A famous Soviet official once said: When you take away the people's believes, the danger is not that they will believe in nothing. The danger is they will believe anything. Much like what is happening in Europe today.

People won't believe anything and everything - they will believe whatever fits in with their current worldview. Hence they will believe anything that confirms their preconceived notions.

This is not a European trait, this is a human trait.

	21-04-2002 23:30									#690
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quote: Originally posted by Beren Are you saying truth always wins?

No, I only hope it does, and I believe we have a better chance of that now than in previous times.

quote: Most people don't know how many deaths they caused.

I believe its true that many people with the ability to know of these events dont think of how many have died in Afghanistan on a daily basis. (By "they" I assume you're referring to the Military actions in Afghanistan)

quote: When these figures come out, people take notice and criticise it: see what happens on this forum.

But the point is that they did take notice, whether they agree or not.

quote: When there are no images avaiable people don't care. The crimes Assad committed in Syria are not commonly known, because he made sure no press was in the region or that the entire village was destroyed. His worst crimes are now known (we think) but most people don't take notice. People don't trust information when there is no video avaiable.

The old adage of "picture is worth a thousand words" is often true in many fields. It's therefore even easier to twist the truth with a picture than with words. A picture wont take the place of an open mind and critical evaluation of the evidence.

quote: You can of course always claim that the truth will always come out eventually. (Read what Karl Popper, has to say about this: it can't be attacked. A proposition is checkable, whenever it can't be united with certain events.)

I cant claim more than passing familiarity with Popper, but as I read it, his views dont deny the possibility of establishing "the truth" but suggest instead that truth can only be established by elimination of the untrue (very Holmesian). An important tenet of his philosophy was that we should avoid the easy answers from those wishing to provide us with "the truth". Isnt that whats going on here? (sometimes) .

quote: BTW: It wouldn't be the first time American government committed some horrible lies to keep the coalition together.

Gotta have some specifics