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satyajedi
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quote:
Originally posted by Manstein3
@satyajedi
You forgot Turkey, heart of the former Osmanic Empire, which was an imperialist nation on its own, and Japan! |
I forgot neither. Turkey / the Ottoman Empire was taken apart, piece by piece, by the British and French from 1922-1924. Yes, Ataturk ruled throughout that period, and no, it was not technically 'conquored', but the foreign domination was clearly there.
And Japan? Who wrote the Japanese constitution? I think that qualifies as domination, although you're right that we never 'conquored' Japan. Although, I suppose if you're calling America a non-European nation, then Japan is also an exception.
-Satya
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:16
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quote:
Originally posted by siredgar
Chinese territorial expansion is characteristically different from European colonialism, don't you think? |
Yes, inasmuch as slavery did not play a part in Chinese conquest, presumably because the only form of slavery used by the Chinese (with the exception of the Mongol period of rule) was slavery as a result of non-payment or defaulting on debts.
However I take issue with the idea that the Chinese did not consider themselves superior in a similar way that Europeans did... it is difficult to see how any nation/empire that routinely refers to other peoples as barbarians (hung mao i) or dwarf pirates (a term initially derived from descriptions of the Japanese, but then used to describe all pirates, regardless of ethnicity) and insists on the superiority of the Confucian way of life, doesn't have some kind of superiority complex. How do vassal states, for instance, achieve this inferior status? By the Chinese imposing their will on them, through political, cultural and ultimately military means- sinicizing Vietnamese or Koreans or Oirats or Tatars or Uighurs, means imposing a culture or set of norms or beliefs that again, presumably the aggressor sees as superior.
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siredgar
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New York, NY
Nov 2001
time: 00:16
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Molly:
Yes, the Chinese had many unpaid laborers, but most of them were Chinese, too.
Sagacious Dolphin:
This complex led to actions beyond merely scoffing others for their "backwardness" or even subscribing to a racially-based ideology. It led to slavery and colonialism targeted against non-Europeans.
Many people of Ming China thought they were superior to others, even Westerners. However, they did not go on to enslave other peoples based on race. In fact, they tried to encompass different cultures into their civilization. Some peoples, in effect, eventually became a part of "Han" China. Others, the Chinese realized, could not be "Sinicized". Either they fought back (like the Vietnamese) or had too much of their own distinct civilization (like the Koreans).
For the past 500 years, Europeans have dominated global affairs. Unfortunately, the legacy that they will leave will include racially-based slavery and colonialism. In fact, this superiority complex is still quite prevalent throughout Europe and its settlements today.
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:16
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My God, this thing has actually settled down into a reasoned discussion. 
I, as someone who has studied history and cares about what occurs beyond the borders of the USA, am frustrated by many of my fellow citizens, who know little of the outside world and care even less what the outside world thinks - unless America is criticized, which gets an angry, irrational response (many of whom, it seems, are related to me) 
However, I am equally annoyed by people who spew nothing but conspiracy theories about the USA plotting world domination (some of the writers of the aforementioned Guardian, which I often read). There is definitely a segment of Western Intelligentsia that believes the USA can do no right - ever. No one seems to have any objectivity. That's what drives me nuts. Call a spade a spade, yes, but also give credit where credit is due.
One of the main problems in international relations is that most people aren't really capable of rational, dispassionate, discussion of issues. There is just too much emotion involved. This, of couse, lends itself to demagogues, who prey upon those emotions. Northern Ireland, Israel & Palestine, India and Pakistan... it's everywhere.
What really angers me most about my country's foreign policy is that it provides ammunition (politically speaking) to demagogues and extremist groups. Our extremists and their extremists prove each other right, and the rest of us get to go along for the ride.
By the way, on the superiority issue... citizens of powerful, wealthy nations always think they are superior...and those that once were, but are no longer, always resent it.
Just friday ramblings... agree or disagree, please do so without anger.
-Arrian
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Giovanni August
I think America should be in the game because they were and they are very important in later History!
The Axis would probably won WW2 if America would not exist! |
I don’t like Americans because they know World history in their own way. Your knowledge of history is based on Hollywood’s movies, but not truth. If your knowledge were based on real facts, if your opinion about WW2 was based upon studying of real documents, archives and statistics then you never dare to say that America is defeat AXIS.
The Axis lost WW2 not because of America existed. America’s influence on results of WW2 is VERY SMALL, almost nothing. . The AXIS loses WW2 because Hitler attacks Soviet Union and I’ll try to explain to you WHY.
If only your knowledge about WW2 was not based upon movies like “Save private Rayne” or the most stupid film I ever see –“ The enemy at the gates” in that case you’ll know that main battles in WW2 was between Germany and Soviet Union. The number of troops and weaponry involved in conflict between these two nations cannot be compared to any others armies. Try to understand facts- America invade Normandy in 1944, before only few month until the war was over, Soviet Union fight against Germany during almost FIVE years (1941-1945). Whole yours invasion forces was about two million of soldiers it is 15 times less then our CASUALTIES (about 30 millions of soviet soldiers and civilians was killed during five years of war). We paid the highest price in this war, try to imagine 30 millions of people, it can be compared to population of entire countries. We have such huge losses because we fight against major AXIS forces. If you call invasion in Normandy a huge military operation, then we call it a routine offence operation, there is nothing remarkable in such kind of operation. You don’t know about real major battles of WW2 like battles near Kiev, Bryansk, Smolensk, Moscow, Odessa, Sevastopol, Stalingrad, Kursk, Leningrad, Kenigsberg, Praga, Berlin and many others. It was the bloodiest battles in human history. Ask about WW2 an AXIS veteran or German military historian if you don’t trust me, he will told you that main German army was defeated by Russians. I think if you say to him that yours tiny army in 1944 crushed Hitler’s colossal war machine for the period of few month he will laugh long at you. German’s war machine was beaten by another colossus – Soviet Union, not by few American marines from beyond the ocean. And finally, if I am still not convince you that you are mistaken then look at map. Try to find Russian capitol- Moscow this is where AXIS forces were in winter 1941, and then try to find a Volgograd (former Stalingrad)- this is where AXIS forces were in 1943. Germans occupied Territory between these cities. Then try to find Berlin, Prague, Budapest, or any other capital of former Warsaw pact countries. This is where our army was in 1945. Our soldiers went thousands miles from Moscow to Berlin, liberate huge part of our own territory and almost whole Europe. Then try to find Normandy on map, and try to calculate distance between Normandy and Berlin, this is territory liberated by yours marines who fight against boys from “Hitler Yougent”, but not AXIS regular forces, because remaining German regular army fight on Eastern front. Actually fascist prefer to surrender to Allies then to Soviet Army because they did terrible crimes to our people, crimes you can even imagine they feared of our punishment. You don’t know what horror they bring to our lands in 1941, you don’t know what it is- a war on own territory, America never have such war. You call Pearl Harbor a national tragedy, for us it’s just on day of war, try to imagine Pearl Harbor a 365 days in year, may be then you can understand what year 1941 was for us. During this year we lost the most industrious and most populated part of our territory, fascists burned whole towns with citizens alive. The destruction they bring to our land can’t be compared to anything. But even after that was able to concentrate remaining resources and defeat them. What was Americans doing in 1941? They dancing and drinking beer in their pubs and listen news from Europe deciding how long Soviet Union can stand against unbeatable AXIS forces. I think you were surprised when invincible AXIS army lost battle for a first time in December 1941 near Moscow. It was FIRST military defeat of AXIS, until that time fascists was victorious in every battle or campaign.
The only reason because America is powerful country now it is because while European countries destroying itself during WW2 America have no destruction of their territory, and big human casualties, actually during this war America become a very rich country.
And now you DARE to say that they defeat AXIS?
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:16
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quote:
Originally posted by yin26
First, I never claimed that the U.S. did it alone. And I never claimed they made the biggest sacrifice. Hell, if we had had it our way, it would have stayed a 'Europe problem.' I'm not saying that's a good way to think, but it underscores that we didn't want to be involved in the first place.
However, to say that the U.S. entrance in WW2 *didn't* save a whole big number of asses it to just ingore reality. Does that mean we should be the heros? Well, the UK seemed pretty damned heroic to me, and the Russian casualties are astounding.
So I'll leave it with this: For any one nation to claim it was the deciding factor in WW2 is simply ignorant. By the same token, to ingore the sacrifices made is not only ignorant but sad. |
You are Americans do not understand simple things. Hitler does not want to owe Europe actually he already owes Europe in 1941, if you don’t know about this then look at old maps. Red Army, but not yours marines liberated countries occupied by fascist’s forces. We save this people, not you are. You do not want to understand this because since your childhood you learn different, own version of history based on twisted facts, dreams, fantasies, lie, anything but not on real facts and truth. That’s why history is teaching you nothing. You think that for USA could be better if Hitler aggression stayed a 'Europe problem.’ You do not understand that Hitler do not want to capture only Europe, he want to owes whole world. If he was victorious in war in Europe and Africa, I can assure you were the next target for him, and very easy target, because your army was ten times weaker than Hitler’s war machine.
Look’s like that you can feel danger only when something bad happens to you are. During last 2 years our president try to convince you that terrorism not our ‘own problem’, that terrorism is WORLD’S PROBLEM. We start the war against terrorism 2 years ago and during this two years NO ONE of you not understand why we are doing this. You pressured on us, said that we must stop war in Chehnya, that we must find a diplomatic solution, you meeting chehen emissaries in Washington like honorable freedom fighters, emissaries of mans who blow whole civilian houses with sleeping people within, in Moscow, Kizlyar and other cities of my country. Only when terrorist strike you are at 11 September, you start to understand that it is not ‘our own problem’, terrorism is world’s problem. By the way with how many ben Laden’s emissaries you tried to find a diplomatic solution? I think that sad events of September 11 must teach you that you can’t stay away from ‘Europe’s problems’ because sooner or later this problems strike on you are, and strike very hard.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Must be Velikiye Luki (translated Grand Meadows). Yea, you are right, at the beginning of WWII it was like Panzers meeting Riflemen, plus Germany had a superior airforce. And the battles in Russia, especially 1942 (Stalingrad) and 1943 (Kursk et al.) were really terrible, for both sides. There was not much left to beat in 1944/45. |
Well, you have to ask your veterans about “Katusha”- first rocket artillery, widely used by Soviet army since 1941. You can ask about tanks IS-2 or T-34, btw T-34 is best tank of WW2 in its class. You can ask about IL-2 a legendary fighter of WW2. Many of our weaponry were unmatched for that time.
Before the war Soviet Union has supreme army, modern and experienced. Don’t you know that many German generals before the war learned in Russian military academies? Gudarian your brilliant tank tactician is one of them. He represents SOVIET tank school, because soviet tank school was the best at those times. Do you know what is the biggest tank battle of WW2? Its battle near Prohorovka, THOUSANDS tanks from both sides fight there against each other during few days!!!
So saying that we don’t have technologies and fighting only with riflemen’s is nonsense.
P.S. Germans have superior air force for the first year of war because most of our planes were destroyed on airfields during first hours of war. We have to rebuild our air force almost from nothing.
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18-01-2002 06:12
Actually, I was not thinking of the Russians, as you point out. Have a good evening yourself. War is just a crap business no matter how you cut it...
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