02-12-2001 23:07									#1
	New WWII Scenario in the works Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Well folks. I've long watched what goes on here, feeling more like a curious observer than a designer of any kind myself.

But... no more! I'm currently working on a new scenario. A WWII one (hence the title of the thread).

The idea is this:
It's an alternative history scenario. WWII had begun, and the German blitzkrieg was unstoppable, after smashing through France, Hitler wasted no time launching an invasion of Britain before Churchill had properly digested the news of the French defeat. Before long, Britain was overrun, then iceland, then Greenland... now the fight has stretched to North America proper.

Basically, the Nazi's are beginning to mop up Canada, and you play as the Americans, you must build an army from nothing before the Germans get to your border... for you are surely next on their hitlist. Meanwhile you're keeping an eye out for a Japanese invasion from the Pacific or the possibility of the Germans opening a second invasion front from South America.

I am having problems thinking of techs to include... I know American military wasn't really being built up in large numbers until Pearl Harbor, but does anyone know what tanks, planes, etc. were actually in production in early 1941? I've done lots of research, but these topics are elusive.

Any suggestions, comments, or questions would be appreciated as well.

	02-12-2001 23:27									#2
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Well Cal,

I dont know alot either, but I do know that the P-40 was crittical to the American early war effort. It was that great of a plan, but it was something they had ready to go at the time... You can find my p-40 towards the end of the 'graphics showcase'.


-FMK.

	03-12-2001 00:20									#3
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Given the tremendous logistical problems presented in trying to supply forces from Europe on the American side of the Atlantic Ocean and the immense restrictions that would place on the German offensive, it might be more entertaining and challenging to play the Germans. I just don't see how you could have a Red Front style "massive enemy attacks, stall them, industrialize, build up weapons, and then counterattack" scenario with something like this.

You might have better luck with a "June 1940: Sealion" scenario as the British.

	03-12-2001 00:46									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Scott F Given the tremendous logistical problems presented in trying to supply forces from Europe on the American side of the Atlantic Ocean and the immense restrictions that would place on the German offensive, it might be more entertaining and challenging to play the Germans.

I'll admit it's not the most probable things that could've happened with a german victory... but I'm gonna make it anyway.

Oh, and this wouldn't be like Red Front (I'm not THAT good ), the object of the game would be to build up an army before the invasion, not start the game off with a huge demoralizing invasion you have to recover from.

	03-12-2001 00:53									#5
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Planes:

F2A
F4F
SBD
TBD
B-17
B-25
P-38D (More like Late 1941)
B-24 (Ditto)
P-39D
P-40
Tanks:

M3 Lee/Grant
M4 Sherman (began in March 1941)

	03-12-2001 01:20									#6
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Darth:

Thanks, I don't know where you got that, but it's great.

	03-12-2001 01:54									#7
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dammit Cal, I wanted to do an invasion of North America scenario right after I played the Invasion of Australia! Dude, but you have to have the Canadians as a playable Civ!!

here are some Coooooool ass units:

Canadian Special Forces- alpine troops, very fast and mobile the frozen Canuck north.
Rocky mountain brigades- once the Germans try to take the west coast, these groups of ambushers and shock troops take'm out in the Great Divide.
Japanese Fire Bombs- balloons that flew over North America to attempt to burn down the forests (this was really attempted by the Japs, the only fire bombs that actually landed were on Vancouver Island, which is where I live)
Partisans- Quebecers, Texans and New Yorkers who fight behind enemy lines! Yeah!

	03-12-2001 03:17									#8
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From left to right:
Quebecer Partisan, Texan Partisan, Canadian Alpine Troops, US Rocky Mountain Brigade, Canadian Rocky Mountain Brigade, Japanese Firebomb

Attachment: northamunits.gif
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	03-12-2001 03:20									#9
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Very nice units.

The Quebecois shield is ugly though.

	03-12-2001 03:32									#10
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*Ahem*

Attachment: goodshield.gif
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	03-12-2001 03:32									#11
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Hobbes: Nice units... but I'm not sure if I'll use all of them, but thank you!

	03-12-2001 03:36									#12
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In early 1941 the US army was still using lame machine gun armed tanks (acording to Steel Panthers 3 ). I don't think that the US Army ever adopted the M-3 Grant/Lee as US rearmament coincided with the arival of the superior M-4 Sherman (and the Brits needed all the M-3's they could get).
The US Airforce was still using a wierd collection of mid 30's aircraft in 1941 as well as the more modern types (B-10's, etc).
I *think* that the P-51B Mustang was developed in 1941 (the P-51B had a conventional cockpit and was greatly inferior to the more famous P-51D)

In addition, you may want to give the Germans captured British and French warships. As a means of getting American support, Churchill hinted strongly that in the event of a German invasion the Royal Navy would be used as a bargaining chip to win concessions from the Germans. Likewise the need to keep the French Fleed neutral was the main reason the Germans agreed too the Vichy French government.

Last edited by Case on 03-12-2001 at 04:07

	03-12-2001 03:41									#13
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Hey Cal-

I never noticed... do you really live in Hermosa?! I live in South Torrance, right at the base of Palos Verdes Hill, but my mailing address is actually Redondo Beach. Which means you probably live about 5 miles away from me... cool!

	03-12-2001 03:46									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Hobbes Dude, but you have to have the Canadians as a playable Civ!!

I'm pretty sure they're not going to be playable... they're mostly there so it looks like the German AI is doing something while you (the Americans) prepare...

	03-12-2001 03:50									#15
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quote: Originally posted by MagyarCrusader Hey Cal- I never noticed... do you really live in Hermosa?! I live in South Torrance, right at the base of Palos Verdes Hill, but my mailing address is actually Redondo Beach. Which means you probably live about 5 miles away from me... cool!

Yep. Wow, that is cool.
I live right before the "costal zone" ends on the edge of Hermosa and Redondo.

	03-12-2001 04:22									#16
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quote: Nice units... but I'm not sure if I'll use all of them, but thank you

Use 'em or not, I like makin' them. So here's a few more!
Left to Right: Alaskan Infantry, Coastal Gun Turret, Militia.

	03-12-2001 04:23									#17
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...

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	03-12-2001 05:56									#18
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I also found the M2A4 might be a good choice for existing U.S. tank (of which, 365 were built).

	03-12-2001 05:59									#19
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The M3 Stuart/Honey light tank was also in service I think.

	03-12-2001 06:03									#20
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Excellent units Hobbes! You work very fast! I especially like the Ami's in their sandbags. I recognize the units and its great to see them get a little protection. The Texans are a nasty bunch aren't they.

Cal,

If you are using multiple events files etc like we talked about, you could always throw a 'Play as Canadians' version of events and rules. You could just have stats changes, production changes etc, to make the original have more of a playable game for the Knucks up there. A tweak to event text with a Canadian feel to it and viola! Canadian playable.

-FMK.

	03-12-2001 10:00									#21
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I (briefly) worked on a similar sounding scenario a while ago. I supect that this will be of no use to you, but here's all I did on it (about half the American and Canadian cities placed). The maps pretty good - I got it off Mercator's site from memory.

Attachment: build.sav
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	03-12-2001 10:13									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Case The maps pretty good - I got it off Mercator's site from memory.

Hey, this is the exact same map I'm using! Amazing. A lot of the cities you placed I've placed in the same locations, with a few exceptions.
I've already got all the city placement done. I've been advised that the order of the important stuff should be:
1. Techs
2. City Improvements
3. Units
...so I'm working on the tech tree now.

	03-12-2001 10:20									#23
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Just my 2 cents (= 1 cent USD).

2 things
- 1) The early war production/development came about with the US being relatively secure wrt actual invasion, henceforth giving them time to build up industry/designs etc. In a campaign such as you're suggesting those may both be much more curtailed (ie: No Mustang?) and older designs more mass-produced, with the US seeing the UK go down in 1940.

- 2) German influence was fairly strong in many South/Central American countries (Argentina particularly). With a decisive win in Europe (Don't know if you're including Barbarossa/USSR or not?) that influence could have been increased to the extent that said countries were willing to take part in the actual invasion or at least to serve as staging grounds - requiring a land war on 2 fronts for the US (really tightening the thumbscrews here ).

	03-12-2001 10:35									#24
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon Just my 2 cents (= 1 cent USD). 2 things - 1) The early war production/development came about with the US being relatively secure wrt actual invasion, henceforth giving them time to build up industry/designs etc. In a campaign such as you're suggesting those may both be much more curtailed (ie: No Mustang?) and older designs more mass-produced, with the US seeing the UK go down in 1940.

Either that, or they'll get really smart with new designs...
Say... that gives me a great idea! Thank you!

quote: - 2) German influence was fairly strong in many South/Central American countries (Argentina particularly). With a decisive win in Europe (Don't know if you're including Barbarossa/USSR or not?)

The soviets don't have a civ to represent them, so any action on the Soviet-German border will be off-screen. I'm not sure exactly what will happen yet, but Barbarossa will not begin June 22nd 1941.

Your comments give me some great ideas for how to manipulate the tech tree! Thank you.
I won't say exactly how though... people that post all their good ideas once they get them have a bigger tendency to "burn out".

	03-12-2001 10:36									#25
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Actually, German influence in Argentina was anchored to the top notch government officials. The wealthier families were all drooling anglo-philes.

	03-12-2001 12:20									#26
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Just a word of advice, you need to have some major partison activity in Montana if it is over run by the Germans. I will admit that not all of us are crazy, but we all own guns (legal or otherwise). During the 1940's this was even more true, minus the crazies.

	03-12-2001 15:14									#27
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Using Steel Panthers WaW which is all about WW2 so it has so much more info than SP3 i came up with this.

From Jan 1940 these are the tanks the US used.

M1917: 30cal TMG
M1917A1: 37mm Gun
M2A4: 37mm Gun, 30cal AAMG, 30cal CMG, 30cal BMG

and thats it until the M3 and M4's come in unfortunately. I mean those tanks will be outclassed by a Panzer III.

Also in the US arsenal at the time were.

40mm AA Guns
3inch AA Guns (Also could be doubled as an AT Gun)
155mm Howitzers along with all the smaller sizes
37mm AT Gun.

And then you have infantry lol
Doesnt look good. Give me some dates to look up and ill give you all the information that Steel Panthers World At War has

	03-12-2001 17:43									#28
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I think this will help.

This site contains every damn thing the US army ever built or even contemplated. Scroll down on the left and find the US flag.

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/

	03-12-2001 22:38									#29
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After France fell in 1940, the French waffled on what they were going to do with their fleet, so Churchill ordered the Royal navy to sink it. Historical fact.

Churchill also advised that if the UK was defeated, then the British fleet had orders to sail to Canada. Historical fact.

So here's something interesting for your scenario:

1) Since Canada is about to fall, then have Canada transfer this Royal fleet to America.

2) Canada built a lot of the planes, etc used in Britain, so have Canadian partisans carry on the fight in America. They could appear via "events" and bring with them British tanks, planes, guns, etc.

3) I'm not sure if you'll have ocean in your scenario, but Hitler planned on building the "Z" force - made up of 6 Superbattleships (like the Japanese Yamato), carriers, cruisers, destroyers, troop ships, etc. (another historical fact). So it might be possible to have a naval battle between German and British ships (now being used by Americans). Or the Americans could use these ships plus their own navy to haress the Germans along coastal cities as they prepare to meet the invasion of their own homeland.

Just a few thoughts for you

	04-12-2001 04:08									#30
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That's one hell of a good site. I recomend that you read the entry on New Zealands 'Bob Semple' tank
(to quote: "it had a crew of 8 men. 8 men? I can understand 5, but 8? 5 were probably soldiers, 1 was a shop steward, another fended off the birds trying to roost, and the last took out the trash once a day and waved to the people.")
hey, the Kiwi's are beating us in the cricket, so I've got to find some area where I can still mock them

Kobi, have you considered putting out a document with all the links that you use?

Last edited by Case on 04-12-2001 at 04:14