03-12-2001 18:15									#31
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to me i think civ3 forgot some of the fundamentals

i completely understand the logic of getting rid of caravans, they wanted to simply the trade menu, it all goes back to Sid's rule of complexity doesn't mean depth...however being able to trade units, or station your units in enemy cities, or being able to ask two warring factions are not cumbersome things that add complexity without adding depth, it was decisions like those that makes me question some of the choices they made for civ3

about EU being pretty good, to begin so was Civ2
i have also heard that EU2 is only a challenge if you play as the weakest minor powers in the game
and right now i am kinda playing devils advocate with you...but in all seriousness, while i do find that civ3 is tedius (and certainly not just from moving units around, it is more of a shortage of interesting choices to make)

i know you said that u liked SE4, but don't you find it terribly tedius? that is why i stopped playing it, too much of the samething without any added spice...its like eating bread and water all throughout the game, to me i find more enjoyment in designing the units than in churning them out with nothing to do with them except attack

	03-12-2001 18:22									#32
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well we have yet to see the level of post game support firaxis provides for Civ3 although i think it will be better than the gaming industry average, but certainly not the outstanding level of post game support provided by both paradox and malfador...although i could really care less if a company is a bunch of stuck up ass holes as long as they put out patches which address the issues with the game, and i would far rather a company to work on patches than to chat with the fans or make useless post on a forum like this

although addressing real concerns like the scenario letter from the modding community is a priority in post game support, but a simple note, like "message recieved we're working on it now" would satisfy me

	03-12-2001 18:28									#33
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quote: Originally posted by korn469 although addressing real concerns like the scenario letter from the modding community is a priority in post game support, but a simple note, like "message recieved we're working on it now" would satisfy me

got any posts like that in civ3/help forum?

	03-12-2001 18:30									#34
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jeff has mailed back that they have gotten the bug lists so far...this week will tell if they just recieved them or they really got them

	03-12-2001 19:28									#35
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quote: so the difference is in the attitude of the companies. frankly, i do not give a toss about their attitude, i am more interested in the end product.

Yes, well it's the "They like bugs in the games" and "Let's be quiet while a gamer is sued in our name" and "Screw what's actually in the LE" attitude that seems to get ... ahem ... SOME people here in a tizzy.

	03-12-2001 19:34									#36
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No one likes bugs in the game. The bugs have been documented, reported, and are being fixed. A gamer is not being sued; a copyright infringer was told to cease and desist. As for the LE, I feel like they have a valid complaint. Which complaint, unfortunately, they've handled for the most part like nine-year-olds. Have you ever been on the other side of a customer complaint? If someone approaches you with genuine civility and charm, you'll go out of your way to help them. But if someone attacks you, you will raise your fist to defend yourself. That's human nature the world over.

Gah. And people say the AI can't negotiate.

	03-12-2001 19:38									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Libertarian Have you ever been on the other side of a customer complaint? If someone approaches you with genuine civility and charm, you'll go out of your way to help them. But if someone attacks you, you will raise your fist to defend yourself. That's human nature the world over.

the only language PR depts understand is that of a brute force, threat of a litigation or massive public disgrace.
u work for PR & customer's complaints?

	03-12-2001 19:43									#38
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I have. And when I did, I was a person, not a department. Maybe that was the key. Some people saw me as an institution; others as a human. I dealt very well with the latter, and gave the former as hard a time as I could.

	03-12-2001 19:51									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Libertarian I dealt very well with the latter, and gave the former as hard a time as I could.

Well, I guess I would sack you the very minute you start making such differentiations.

	03-12-2001 19:55									#40
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Um, the "differentiation" was made by you. You decided that I was a department, and not a person. So I treated you the way a department would treat you.

	03-12-2001 20:12									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Libertarian Um, the "differentiation" was made by you. You decided that I was a department, and not a person. So I treated you the way a department would treat you.

i am sorry for the bad time you had there. but, um, once you switch from monarchy or communism into republic/democracy and start working at customer's complaints/help dept, you are supposed to take any and all of the crap they throw at you. simple as that. if they want a philosopher or a subtly sarcastic-yet-witty employee they would write out a job position stating those qualities as preferred. no. they want anyone who will listen to customers' BS for about a year then quit....

	03-12-2001 20:15									#42
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You're probably right, LaRusso! I surrender to your superior argument.

Now, where did I put that damn note from the doctor?

	03-12-2001 20:50									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Libertarian Now, where did I put that damn note from the doctor?

	03-12-2001 21:29									#44
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I wanted to comment on the "micromanagement" theme that Venger addresses here and that many have responded to.

I've been of two minds about the entire issue.

Naturally, I see and understand the point about tedium. Workers vs. public works? Gosh, who would choose to move units around - isn't that the natural thought?

But for a long, long time I've tried to decide why CivII and CivIII are better games than CtP and CtP2. And a lot of people point to the future techs or the lawyer/corporation/televangelist units or the underwater/space cities and say, "THAT is the problem. It is an abomination!" - and I'm sure that these things are part of it.

But I for one think that one of the problems with the CtP system is that there just isn't enough to do.

There's more of a warm glow of self-satisfaction associated with the Civ system, for me, precisely because it's a little bit more of a pain in the butt. More of a feeling of accomplishment when my first railroads are completed, for example [as lame a concept as feelings of accomplishment in a GAME are, hey - I'm a geek, I get to feel these things]. I for one miss caravans, in retrospect, even though I use to hate them and rage about how it wouldn't take that long to ship something from Rome to Alexandria.

CivII was more immersive than CtP in part because you had to concentrate on it. Reflexively, people will tell you that they don't like to have to concentrate, that it's a pain, that the game should do it for them - but on some level the majority seem to have preferred the game that requires greater attention.

CtP2 went all-out with mayors, with cumulative working of tiles [you don't even have to place citizens any more, they just work all the tiles at once and do some math], kept its vaunted public works and abstracted caravans system - and just about everyone who bought it pronounced it a bore, and the game sold so poorly Activision can't afford to support it.

We have to acknowledge that, psychology being what it is, sometimes we really don't know what it is that makes us like the games that we like. The graveyards are full of game companies that made the old Avalon Hill / SPI mistake and tried to build games by taking public polls. I know that the entire process of game design today is more interactive, because of the internet, and on the whole that gamer empowerment is a great development. I'm just not entirely sure that gamer surveys can substitute for inspired designer work, and I'd hate to see the basic CivIII system changed in ways that won't have the effect people are hoping it might.

	03-12-2001 21:37									#45
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Good insight, Ludwig. There are automated systems available, but people complain that those systems don't read their minds. Civ is definitely a thinking person's game.

	03-12-2001 21:54									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Libertarian Good insight, Ludwig. There are automated systems available, but people complain that those systems don't read their minds. Civ is definitely a thinking person's game.

I don't like to phrase it in exactly that way because it makes it sound like a matter of intelligence. I don't think it is - it's more like the ratio between effort and reward. Although most people, when asked, will tell you that they just want the reward, in many areas involving competition that just isn't true, because part of the reward is the mental state brought on by making the effort.

But I'm probably not explaining this right.

I downloaded CivI from an abandonware site a few months ago. had never played it; went from CtP to CivII to SMAC to Ctp2. I just plain old got to the genre too late for CivI. And the thing that struck me about that experience [again, after a lot of reflection] was that in some ways I enjoyed it even MORE, because of its primitivism, because of the extra clicking, because of the unavoidable pop-ups with long historical digressions. By the time I got anything done I felt like I had just climbed K-2. As the game system gets more streamlined and more abstract, it seems like more people get bored with the games more quickly. [If that's not too many "mores" in one sentence or anything.] Right, the pop-ups when you discover a new tech are less distracting now - but the entire exercise of advancing in tech feels more prosaic, less noteworthy, less significant. There are no pop-ups when units are done, and no pop-ups when cities go into disorder - so the start of turns is quicker and has less clicks to it - but now it's hard to be sure if you have any cities in disorder, the governor starts building things you don't want built and you don't know abou it, and the modern age has a distinctly "spectator" feel about it, wouldn't you say?

More rambling after I think about it some more.

	03-12-2001 22:02									#47
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I agree with the complaints about tediousness. I am really suprised about the level of tediousness I am stuck in. Especially once you capture all these enemy workers.

Moreover, there is indeed some 'zing' (?) lacking in this game. That certain 'je ne sais quois' (?) which I think I felt while playing CivI and CivII. I sometimes get bored during a game, quit, and subsequently play some other game, or re-examine my stamp collection, or phone my parents in law...

I guess the feeling of having accomplished something is lacking, for example with regards to conquering. Probably because conquering is somewhat useless, and conceptually at least, 'easy'. I think I would feel more satisfied about conquering a city, when it either would be more difficult, or yield more benefits.

It is actually quite rampant in CivIII, the feeling that I am not satisfied with someting I accomplish. For example, what could possibly make me happy about the fact that I discovered polytheism? [other than that it is step towards monarchy, or that I can trade it with the AI]. Similarly I do not get that "yeeees, I've done it" feeling, when I built a wonder. Moreover I often find I run out of things to build in a city, and the only thing I am left with is to build a mobile attack unit to swarm the enemy with, and conquer useless cities. Lack of big points? [e.g. basketball vs. soccer, anyone?]

Maybe I should play it a bit more...
But I feel that although I cannot completely and accuratly describe why, I find Civ III less fun than the two originals.

	03-12-2001 22:05									#48
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quote: By the time I got anything done I felt like I had just climbed K-2.

ROFL

quote: Right, the pop-ups when you discover a new tech are less distracting now - but the entire exercise of advancing in tech feels more prosaic, less noteworthy, less significant.

Do you remember in Civ1 when you discovered a new tech, the screen cuts away to whatever tech you had discovered with a screen of a scholar and "Sire, our wisemen have discovered the secret of Map Making!" and a little description? The best bit though is when it plays that little tune which is Civ specific (it does wear a bit thin by the end of the game though)! It is so great anyway. Even Civ2 never came close to that.

	03-12-2001 22:07									#49
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While I was typing my post, Ludwig made some very similar comments. I didn't mean to be that redundant or imitate him, so Sorry.

But he describes it well.
Especially:

' but the entire exercise of advancing in tech feels more prosaic, less noteworthy, less significant.'

or:

'and the modern age has a distinctly "spectator" feel about it'

	03-12-2001 22:24									#50
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quote: There are no pop-ups when units are done, and no pop-ups when cities go into disorder - so the start of turns is quicker and has less clicks to it - but now it's hard to be sure if you have any cities in disorder, the governor starts building things you don't want built and you don't know abou it, and the modern age has a distinctly "spectator" feel about it, wouldn't you say?

Lord, no. My modern era turns typically take anywhere from two to four hours each, sometimes more. Due to my Melancholy temperament, I have a routine that never changes from the first turn of the game. Inspecting each city on each turn is simply the way I play. Therefore, I always know when my cities are even headed for disorder. And I always carefully select exactly what to build.

Tell you what. I'll give you a treat. As a supporter of the efforts of the Firaxis guys, and appreciating what they've done — working the long hours, enduring the endless insults from this forum, and whatnot — I've spent a lot of time hunting down all the little brushfire complaints and peeing on them.

But in point of fact, I don't think the game is perfect. I'm not talking about the AI or anything. Anyone who's ever written anything more than trivial code knows what a splendid job Soren did on the AI. Here's what I don't like:

-----

Nag Screens

No, I do not want to build a damn hospital. Quite often, I employ slow-growth strategies for a variety of reasons. When I want you to build a hospital, I'll tell you to build it. Don't make me click through an endless series of nags when I have fifty cities. If nothing else, give me a "No to all" option.

Next Unit Selection

Arggghhh! I'm in the middle of fighting a carefully planned and executed battle, dammit! Do NOT yank me from this arena to some irrelevant worker halfway across the world. Select units for me by first exhausting the stack I'm on, and then selecting the geographically closest units.

Civilopedia Access

I want to have access to it from absolutely everywhere, especially from the diplomacy screen.

-----

So, there you go. Proof that I'm no sycophant.

	03-12-2001 22:27									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Be Quicker While I was typing my post, Ludwig made some very similar comments.

What delightful irony!

	03-12-2001 22:27									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Venger In order to maximize my empire, I have to railroad each and every tile on the map. It's ugly, it's tedious, and it's stupid.

Its not much in your post that I agree on, Venger, but with above quote I actually DO agree.

I would have liked to see railroads that increased shield-production; but didnt change the trade-produktion, and actually decreased food-production somewhat.

This would have forced the player to make some interesting choices & considerations. Unfortunately, in this particular respect Sid Meier had exercised som bad influence, since that railroads-benefits-anyting-and-everything approach, are the exact same one as in Civ-1.

The result? The same ugly, dense spiderweb-looking monotonous modern RR-empires, as in Civ-1.

	03-12-2001 22:49									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf I would have liked to see railroads that increased shield-production; but didnt change the trade-produktion, and actually decreased food-production somewhat.

The REAL way it should be done is that roads and railroads form transportation links, and that the tile bonuses occur when you build a Highways city improvement and a Railway city improvement. The movement and trade connectors would then look like interestate highways and railrays, rather than making my map look like the backstage of a rock concert with 8 million wires and other pieces of crap littered about...

Also, as to food production, railways allows such a massive improvement of transportation, the ability to not only ship more food out, but heavier equipment for farming in, that I like the bonus that railroad gives farming - I just don't want to have 200 workers crawling the map doing it...

quote: This would have forced the player to make some interesting choices & considerations. Unfortunately, in this particular respect Sid Meier had exercised som bad influence, since that railroads-benefits-anyting-and-everything approach, are the exact same one as in Civ-1.

I think railways are okay in any of the ways they've been used in Civ - but to have to cover every last tile with ugly as hell road and railroad is just ridiculous, and tedious as all hell...

quote: The result? The same ugly, dense spiderweb-looking monotonous modern RR-empires, as in Civ-1.

Actually, same as Civ2 as well, although I never railroaded a square without shields or without an important transportation link (the AI Civs were always fully railroaded). And your description is right on the money...

Venger

	03-12-2001 22:54									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ludwig I wanted to comment on the "micromanagement" theme that Venger addresses here and that many have responded to. I've been of two minds about the entire issue. Naturally, I see and understand the point about tedium. Workers vs. public works? Gosh, who would choose to move units around - isn't that the natural thought?

For what it's worth, I prefer workers over public works - the issue really doesn't have to come down to that though, because with either system, you are railroading every tile in your empire under the Civ3 rules.

I like micromanagement - hell I played Civ2 didn't I? But to HAVE to railroad every tile, with so many workers (no engineers people?), it's such a lack of forward thinking that it's shocking. They've had FIVE YEARS to rethink the genre, and so little to show for it on this count.

Venger

	03-12-2001 23:29									#55
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Venger,

When was Firaxis commissioned to do Civ3?

	03-12-2001 23:45									#56
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I couldn't agree more with Venger's aesthetic judgment of the road/railroad situation.

I like the suggestion to make them city improvements instead of tile improvements.

I also think an alternative would be to base the bonuses you receive on the number of cities connected in a single road/railroad network. This would mean that no further benefit would accrue to road or railroad construction, once all your cities were linked - unless you were building redundancy to survive bombing during a war, or were building a "short-cut" between cities that were already connected by a more circuitous route, etc. In other words, you wouldn't have railroads on every square, they'd just be where they made sense.

And the maps wouldn't be so blasted ugly looking.

	04-12-2001 00:22									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Libertarian Venger, When was Firaxis commissioned to do Civ3?

I don't recall anyone commissioning them - they chose to I believe.

Regardless, if your point is that they haven't had 5 years to come up with something better, I was NEVER commissioned to do Civ3, and still had the gravitas to find a better way...

Venger

	04-12-2001 00:26									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Venger Regardless, if your point is that they haven't had 5 years to come up with something better, I was NEVER commissioned to do Civ3, and still had the gravitas to find a better way...

If your such the great programmer then why don't you apply at firaxis and really make a difference??

	04-12-2001 00:28									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Ludwig I also think an alternative would be to base the bonuses you receive on the number of cities connected in a single road/railroad network. This would mean that no further benefit would accrue to road or railroad construction, once all your cities were linked - unless you were building redundancy to survive bombing during a war, or were building a "short-cut" between cities that were already connected by a more circuitous route, etc. In other words, you wouldn't have railroads on every square, they'd just be where they made sense. And the maps wouldn't be so blasted ugly looking.

Agreed on these terms - the only reason to have roads on every tile is for faster unit movement in off city tiles - which could be considered in adjusted unit move rate. For example, the warrior moves 2, which allows him to move around the map okay, but on a road he'd move 6 tiles. In fact, alot of people have a problem with move rates in general, this would assuage those. Any thoughts?

I think the number of cities connected to the network idea is good but is better reflected perhaps in trade/research/revenue, trade ideally, althought the Civ2 trade system would be more suited for that than the current Civ3 trade system of resources only being really good for what you can do with them. In Civ2 the resources gave you trade routes which prospered the city with extra trade arrows that could be used for luxuries, research, or money, as well as the trade route payoff. In Civ3, you get a small bonus for the resource on the tile, and you can build certain units or get luxuries - I think maybe an elegant combination of each would be well received. And that, combined/modified in effect with a connected trade network would be great.

Venger

	04-12-2001 00:33									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Frito If your such the great programmer then why don't you apply at firaxis and really make a difference??

I'm more of a designer than programmer - although I was a decent programmer back in the days (hey, I had windowed function calls on a TI99-4/A for Gods sake).

If I knew a group of guys who could program and put this together, I'd put in to release the definitive history/empire/strategy game, based heavily on Civ.

I'd also produce a first person internet playable rethinking of the old game "Archon 2", with first person combat in 4 different demesnes (5 counting the void) with choosable team internet play (where each captain "picks" players one at a time on each side, like in school growing up) and outstanding graphics and game mechanics...

If you know some good programmer guys looking for a vision, have them contact me...

Venger