03-12-2001 17:42									#31
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Hmm, what can I say? Yin and Patient said it all

	03-12-2001 19:28									#32
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Diplomacy

I am currnetly playing (my tobelastCiv3-game) on a huge world with 16 civs.
And when I finally at the dawn of Modern age declared my first war, which took two turns, we were into WW1. Due to that one lobbies allies all the time.

OK, first I was ROTFL. (It was a pretty funny sitauation)
But after 17 turns I had litterally kicked several opponents in the ass and dictated peace to them earlier - only to find out that my last opponent lurs them to redeclare war on me. And so I was going in for round two... (Democracy likes it)

Reason was that I had an alliance and wanted to wait the 20 turns - so I don't get a bad reputation. Well finally had to kick my reputation Load and make peace two turns earlier than hoped for. And now I am a lying ***** who nobody trusts - well up yours I would say.

Gamne will hopefully end tonight. (Need maybe 15-20 turns to comnplete my spaceship.) But with each turn taking up to an ˝ hour I'm somewhat pessimistic.


OK, nuff said
(All the previous are also good points - moving an army of worers one-by-one is pain.)

	03-12-2001 19:35									#33
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About FIRAXIS becomming an 'fluff' developper...

I think Civ3 just is a monday-copy made with the lefthand while thinking on what the righthand is doing. I tested Sim Golf and it apears nice and to the people of sim-genree it is somethig new. (Was Gettysburg totally new in it's genree??)

Currently I just have to believe that Civ3 is/was done whitout a heart.
(Image FIRAXIS saying after Brians departure that there will be no Civ3, like there was no Sid Dino. So Civ3 was just done.)

	03-12-2001 19:53									#34
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Hmm, you might be right. It's just sad, that's all. Ah well. Plenty of other games to play and look forward to.

	03-12-2001 20:25									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger What a grave transgression! So, just because you can't make stacks out of units these games are fluff? That makes <em>Civ 2</em> and <em>SMAC/X</em> fluff then.

UR, how old are those games? Isn't that enough? For how many years must we wait for that micromanage pain to end?

	03-12-2001 20:47									#36
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I guess with EU2 its loads more realism. you dont have to build massive farms or collossal road networks. Thats already built...

You just have to form shaky..regional alliances, trade...maintain a defense force and remember to never stop your Imperial quests in the New World.

EU if it went into 1900's would serouisly kick hard core ass.

I can see it now the military options.

Infantry,
Artillery,
Tank,
Airplanes,
Mecanized,

of course the graphics and map would ave to be tweaked

	03-12-2001 21:02									#37
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Yes, EU is not a good war game. Still, it's a better war game than is Civ3!

	03-12-2001 21:33									#38
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i'm still willing to reserve judgement on firaxis... i mean, it's three strikes and you're out, isn't it? civ3, i'm calling as a foul ball. granted, that still makes two strikes, but...

i agree with all counts on infogrames, however. that entire corporation has done too much damage by itself just to the civ genre, what with butchering the development and distribution of the game, especially in regards to their handling of the modding situation and the le situation.

they're the ones who ought to be tarred and feathered, dismembered limb from limb.

	03-12-2001 23:31									#39
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Sorry, I don't buy those sorry excuses. Nobody ever asked for bobbing civ leader heads, which no doubt sent art production costs through the roof. No, this is horrid management and a willing decision to make a crap game with crap PR. If you guys are willing to play slop because you think the big bad market demands it, I'm happy for what will be many great titles for you coming down the line.

I'm not providing excuses for Firaxis, only an explanation of this most unsatisfactory game. I'm not so interested in another boring debate about WHETHER Civ3 is a good game or not, but rather WHY it's not. (attn: Urban Ranger)

I see a couple of weaknesses in your explanation, Yin. First, you don't put the decisions of Firaxis in any context. Trying to understand of the economic environment the company is working in is vital to understanding WHY they made the decisions they did. Bobbing heads are cool; they help sell games. Playtesting will be done by the fans for free; no need to spend money and hold up production for it.

Second, it's not personal. You talk as if your friend Sid let you down. He's NOT your friend, he's the owner of a game company. He's there to make money from you. Do you think the only way to make money on a game is to make a really good one? Think again. It's like saying the only way to win a game of Civilization is to reach Alpha Centauri first. The Mongols may have other plans.

I'm NOT trying to justify the game or Firaxis' decisions at all. I'm as p.o.'d as anyone. Nor am I willing to play slop. But I blame the system, not just Meier.

	03-12-2001 23:48									#40
	Full PM-box? Change here!

CTP2 now lies in the hands of the gamers, as a games "company", gamers are some of the best.

BtW, we are now recruiting. MP, modding and serious gaming included. No qualifications required.

	04-12-2001 05:48									#41
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quote: Bobbing heads are cool; they help sell games. Playtesting will be done by the fans for free; no need to spend money and hold up production for it.

Bobbing heads added nothing to the gameplay, and even as eye-candy is wholly off the mark. It's hideous, annoying artwork. In other words: Fluff. Fluff that drove up production costs for ZERO gameplay improvements and, I would argue, next to zero extra games sold. Terrible decision.

And if you really want to side with Firaxis on the 'fans are our beta testers,' then surely you will agree that the way they went about it is all wrong. I have long advocated using fans PRODUCTIVELY AND OPENLY as testers, but Firaxis merely spouts crap about this so-called 'revolutionary' pile and then only begrudgingly and backhandedly even aknowledges our efforts to help.

That, my friend, is the mark of a company that should close its doors before the almighty economics you talk about shut the doors for them.

	04-12-2001 08:20									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Zealot UR, how old are those games? Isn't that enough? For how many years must we wait for that micromanage pain to end?

<em>SMAC</em> came out in 1998 and <em>SMACX</em> is more recent still.

My point is <strong>not</strong> that game developers should not take steps to reduce micromanagement. Rather, just because a game has no such convenience features doesn't make it "fluff," whatever that means.

	04-12-2001 08:25									#43
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Yes, EU is not a good war game. Still, it's a better war game than is Civ3!

That explains a lot. <em>Civ</em> wasn't supposed to be a wargame <em>per se</em> and throwing in the "Conquest Bonus" was a grave mistake.

Firaxis has done a lot to allow for more balanced approaches to empire building. Now fighting wars is just one of the things that have to be done from time to time, and is not the <strong>only</strong> thing.

	04-12-2001 13:24									#44
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 And if you really want to side with Firaxis on the 'fans are our beta testers,' then surely you will agree that the way they went about it is all wrong. I have long advocated using fans PRODUCTIVELY AND OPENLY as testers, but Firaxis merely spouts crap about this so-called 'revolutionary' pile and then only begrudgingly and backhandedly even aknowledges our efforts to help.

Side with Firaxis? You're not listening! I'm arguing that Firaxis is using fans as UNPAID LABOUR, in other words it's exploiting the fan community to save money. And producing an incomplete product in the process. Do you ever wonder what percent of the original game purchasers ever even hear of the patch, let alone download and install it?

BTW, is it just me or is this thread refusing to refresh? It never moves up after someone posts, nor does the latest posters name appear beside the thread. Is it because it's a moved thread?

	05-12-2001 15:32									#45
	Efect of Brians departure Put an end to popups!

I'll contginue on my road for a short while longer.

I now do think that Civ3 was done whitout a heart and passion that it would have needed.

And I was thinking about Brians departure as a reason, when I remembered that after his departure FIRAXIS said that now new talents had the opportunity to stand up and make - well obviously nobody did or the shoes were too big.

<hr>
P.S. My current Civ3-game ended last night in spaceracevictory. Do you know what was the best part of that game? Yes, the best part was that it ended. I'm actually somewhat proud that I manged to finnish that game. ˝hour turns aren't fun at all.

FIRAXIS: If you read this - please make a log-view ála SMAC so the turn doesn't always pause to tell me that X and Y have made peace,war, trade embargo etc... (What can I do using that info in the middle of computer turn that I cann't do at the beginning of mine??) So please we need a log - also so one can see what city Z was saying so fast I didn't have time to read it.

	05-12-2001 16:37									#46
	Re: Efect of Brians departure Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Jeje2 I now do think that Civ3 was done whitout a heart and passion that it would have needed. And I was thinking about Brians departure as a reason, when I remembered that after his departure FIRAXIS said that now new talents had the opportunity to stand up and make - well obviously nobody did or the shoes were too big.

Well, I don't know any of the team member, so I don't want to minimize their efforts.

They probably suffered so much pressure and had to fit shoes that someone forced to them (BTW, I think that Brian didn't left without some disagreement about the Civ III target and project limits).

That said, I'm only complaining to the leaders, because they must take the guilt for the resulting Civ III. They are payed to lead the company, aren't they?

They are in a mixed status, because they must be succesful on company target (mostly money, you know ), but have to manage customers opinion, too.

IMHO, they half failed on the last point (I can't judge for the former), but let's face it: as Yin stated they are probably repositioning the company on a different customer base. They lost some of us (also disappointed players not on this forum, you know) but take some "fresh blood" with plenty of enthusiasts that love the game AS IS, bugged and unbalanced.

I can live with this, but sure it is a pity to have lost my preferred game developer. Time to move, I suppose.

	05-12-2001 19:20									#47
	Re: Re: Efect of Brians departure Increase the size of your Attachments

Adm.Naismith

Yes you may have right.
It sure can be wrong to blame the developpers only.

quote: Originally posted by Adm.Naismith I can live with this, but sure it is a pity to have lost my preferred game developer. Time to move, I suppose.

Yeah, the brain says that it should be time to move on but the heart...
(After all these excellent games from Sid (&Brian) & Co. it just cann't belive all they do in the future is bad.)

Well, let's hope the game after Sim Golf will be something VERY GOOD.
(Now I'll wait for EU2 (and MoO3))

	06-12-2001 11:09									#48
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Well, I'm quite happy that I haven't bought the game, and I have no plans of purchasing it in the future. Of course, I expected this from Firaxis and, wisely, waited to see other people's responses to the game. Frankly, I don't trust Firaxis to actually make 'fun' games, only profitable ones.

Yin, you are right about Gettysberg and SMAC. They were serious games. I do believe that the developers did have passion for those games (though not Sid). Of course, Firaxis was a young company and SMAC would make or break them. They had to make it popular, as can be seen by many attempts to connect it with CivII. They did put a lot of work into it, and listened to many player suggestions. However, it was a buggy game, and Firaxis' primary flaw was that they responded horribly to it. They avoided responsibility for their mistakes and eventually lashed out at the gaming community (Why Jeff Morris is still an employee there today baffles me.). This created a rift between them and the gaming community. I believe that Firaxis saw many of us as enemies, trying to undermine their 'art' because we were greedy, jealous, little preteens. So they tuned out the community as much as they could (posting occasionally on Apolyton more as publicity stunts than any desire to give the fans a 'fun' game). They were pissed and handled it poorly. In short, the 'SMAC disaster' scarred Firaxis more than it did the gamers preventing them making 'fun' games that fans would praise.

Perhaps Firaxis' initial efforts were to create 'fun' games, but now they simply want to make profitable games. I beleive that Brian left partially because he saw this trend had arrived.

What about the fans who wanted CivIII to be as revolutionary as Civ or CivII?

Firstly, you never should have sucked up to Firaxis. They didn't care anyway. Sucking up only showed them that they had you in their pocket. What should you have done? Do what Yin did. Give them hell. Tell them that you are not going accept a crappy game. Speak your mind. They're not going to make the game worse because people are already complaining its bad. They know now that they can make make crap and get away with it (SimGolf). Gamespot's not going to it is bad. Their commercials certainly aren't. Hell, if it wasn't for this forum, I might have actually bought the game.

In reality, there is nothing you can do to make CivIII better. Firaxis has shown that it doesn't care about its loyal fans. I doubt they ever will. They don't even host their own forums!!!

Actually, there is one thing that you can do. Excerise your right as a consumer to not buy their games. You're not going to get a worthy CivIII anyway. Buy other games. EUII and MoO3. Let Firaxis develop whatever they want. They've given up on you long ago, return the favor.

	06-12-2001 12:25									#49
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Well, guys, it seems somewhere in all this we want to believe that Firaxis can still make awesome games. When their first game out of the gate was Gettysburg, I *really* thought we were seeing the creation of the best company in strategy gaming!

But they just lost focus after that. I have gone on at great lengths since SMAC arguing that their 'doubling of employees and office space' was not something to be proud of.

It would be the kiss of death, I said. Stay a small and focussed group, I pleaded. But with Gettysburg and SMAC making more money than they anticipated, they become another Trilobyte (or are on their way).

Civ3 could have been the biggest came to come in 5 years. Instead, it's barely passable.

	07-12-2001 06:13									#50
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DaShi, how can you bash the game without even playing it!? Man, that really gives strength to your arguments

	07-12-2001 06:19									#51
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Adm. Naismith I mostly agree with you, since civ3 (unpatched) is very difficult to play for me. I had high hopes but not high expectations, so I am not really disapointed. I agree about different market goals, clearly they wanted to attract new people.

one question, why need 'preffered game developer'? great company can make lousy game and lousy company can make a gem. does that mean you would buy everything from them? just curious

	07-12-2001 10:02									#52
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion DaShi, how can you bash the game without even playing it!? Man, that really gives strength to your arguments

Probably, since my argument is why I won't buy it.

	07-12-2001 13:27									#53
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I think that Amn., Yin, and Techumseh are all correct here.

It is telling that Firaxis is a ghost at the Apolyton/Community forum. Their lack of responsiveness is a clear sign of corporate mentality. Those of us who like Civ 2 so much, and were duly impressed by SMAC were playing games run by a small company that was genuinely interested in the games they made and had alot to gain by listening to the community and indeed fostering a community. Why have "brand loyalty" to Firaxis? Well, because some wanted to support people guys who have a track record of good games. That time is over, and they have betrayed so many loyal fans and ignored the community and have become any other company. It is really sad because there was so much potential for Civ 3, and many in the community pinned alot of hopes on Firaxis. They are no longer a company that likes to make games, they are a company that likes to make money. This nonsense about the German translation project shows Infogrames' and Firaxis' contempt for the community. Oh well. Just another story of corporate insensitivity.

	08-12-2001 02:59									#54
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion one question, why need 'preffered game developer'? great company can make lousy game and lousy company can make a gem. does that mean you would buy everything from them? just curious

Now you are asking for me to jump on the soapbox an speak for my 15 minutes as a professor, aren't you?

Well, as many others I'm a man who like to keep with things I enjoy: if an author writes a good book I'll give her/him a sure chance with his/her next effort. Ditto with a director and a good cast for a film, etc.

I'm not a blind lover of sequels, but I usually buy my bit of them

Until they seriusly disappoint me, of course.

Of course a sequel have to prove itself better of its predecessor, at least to justify the effort and the cost, and to keep up with technical advance: you want the next Star Wars II Attack of the clones to have better Special Effects than Phantom Menace, don't you?

Now, I loved Railroad Tycoon, I was surprised and excited by Civ revolution, I liked a lot Civ II, I enjoyed SMAC but with some bad taste left at the end...

Can you see the trend? So do I.

And of course I played some others (new) games, but not so much, because of my reduced spare time and my age that's no more the greenest around here. I hope your curiosity is cleared now