03-12-2001 12:06									#1
	FIRAXIS: Now a 'Fluff' developer? Got spare money?

Working off of my review in which I used an 'Expectation Scale' to help makes sense of why some people like Civ3 so much and others are actually angry, something has hit me:

It's Firaxis itself that seems to have changed. Let me explain.

Gettysburg and SMAC were great (and rather serious) games. Sure, I had problems 'getting into' SMAC, and the infinite range missle issue caused me headaches, but I immediately recognized both games as serious efforts made for serious gamers. Gettysburg simply awed me with its brilliant use of terrain and morale / leaders.

Now Brian Reynolds has left (along with some other key talent), and look at what's being developed:

1) A Golf Sim that, even if it makes millions, belongs on the shelf next to Redneck Bowling and Goat Cart Racing. It's a cheap hack (a knock-off modeled --stolen with permission?-- from the King of Pop Garbage, Will Wright). Don't get me wrong, the masses need to be kept occupied by such drivel. I *want* the masses kept busy, so this is a kind of public service I guess.

I just never thought Sid would go in that direction.

2) A Civ3 game that actually goes BACKWARDS in the tech tree and, IMO, overall seriousness. And what I mean by seriousness is that things like combat and diplomacy and unit management (including workers) actually REWARD mediocre play and mindless clicking. Units that are a few AGES out of date are still competive: This rewards mediocity. 200 units or more can only be moved one at a time at a time at a time at a time at a time at a time at a time at a time at a time at a time (<---typing that was just as fun as mid to late game Civ3). This rewards mindless clicking. Firaxis clearly did not have a serious gamer in mind when making Civ3. They made fluff.

I just never thought Sid would go in that direction.

I won't even begin to go into their choice of publishers and the fact that they let Infogrames bully Civ fans in the name of Firaxis' copyright. And I won't even begin to go into how Firaxis' PR has gotten worse -- as if such a thing were possible.

But all this spells out very clearly: Serious gamers should give up on Firaxis. They are NOT a serious gaming house dedicated to serious games for serious gamers. If you want deep games and solid support from the developer, move on: Nothing to see here but a car wreck (which, I agree, has its own twisted attraction).

They no doubt realize that it's just easier to make sub-par games for a mass market with little ability or desire to ask for more. I can't blame Sid too much, I guess. He's earned his right to milk (again and again and again and again, I guess) great games of the past, even if some of those were NOT his creation to begin with. (Colonization, Civ2 and SMAC were all Brian Reynolds' games)

Now that I realize Firaxis is targetting the Deer Hunter and Who Wants to Be A Millionaire crowd, it all makes sense.

Last edited by yin26 on 03-12-2001 at 12:11

	03-12-2001 12:23									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Tech Progression More or Less Capped at 4 Turns: Rewards mediocrity.

Silly Pasty-Faced Bobbing Leader Heads: Rewards the mindless eye candy crowd.

	03-12-2001 12:25									#3
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Lack of True Modding Ability: Spits in the serious gamers' face.

Lack of MP: See Above.

	03-12-2001 12:25									#4
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Yin Im *****ing as much as you


But give it a rest. Markos Gestapo should be here shortly (he's sleeping now I bet).

Oh yes and.......go get EU2 asap

	03-12-2001 12:25									#5
	Got spare money?

Limited Edition Fails to Deliver What Was Advertised: Spit on serious gamers' faces and then stomp on said face.

	03-12-2001 12:26									#6
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This is a serious discussion for serious gamers. Let's see if it gets locked.

	03-12-2001 12:31									#7
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I'd have to agree with most of that, but tech 4 turn cap is a special way for Firaxis to cover up the poor AI (see * for more support on the poor AI)

One thing Firaxis does have going for them is a nice, pretty looking website that sits there with useless updates (oh wait they don't even seem to be having many useless updates anymore either, Nov 23 was their last update).

Yin, I too, have come to a realization. Looking at all the marvelous work people around this forum have done with the game in such a short amount of time and little tools to work with, makes me think what could be done if open source code was given out or at least an extensive editor (what we were promised, btw). The thing is Firaxis is/was scared on what would happen if that was given out (the game might actually turn into Civ3 instead of being Civ2.5, but just with more flaws).

To get off of the 'knock Firaxis horse' I will be honest here and say that with the right downloads (Korn's Blitz mod, Snoopy's graphics, and other cool graphic changes) from Civ3 Files section Civ3 is a pretty good game. In fact I will encourage people to buy Civ3 now, of course I will also mention that a few downloads will have to be made for the game following the purchase for the game to become 'pretty good'.

*My biggest grief with the game so far (as I have stated numerous times) has been the constant AI expansion that is unbeneficial. Expansion is great as long as it is beneficial. Most of the time the AI would be more beneficial concentrating on city improvements instead (they do build wonders, though).

Sorry for the excessive edits and paranthesis.

Last edited by TechWins on 03-12-2001 at 12:41

	03-12-2001 12:34									#8
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No, this is a dark time in history.

Gentlemen, we are witnessing the end of Civilization (tm.)

	03-12-2001 12:36									#9
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LOL! Catchy! Well, I'm just relieved I figured out the source of my angst!

	03-12-2001 12:36									#10
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Ahem... "King of Pop Garbage, Will Wright"? Even if you don't like Maxis games, I believe Will Wright doesn't belong anywhere NEAR a comparison with Firaxis.

For better or worse, Maxis and Will Wright have always experimented with all sorts of concepts that haven't been done before, instead of becoming fixed on making yet another reincarnation of a franchise game. Whether you like The Sims or not, it was a radically new game. Aimed at keeping the masses busy or not, the point is that they could have made Sim City 4000, 5000 and 6000 instead, if they just wanted to milk a franchise. They didn't. They took a risk with a game that everyone thought won't sell, until they actually had a prototype.

And even when they do milk The Sims, it's in the form of expansion packs that add a _lot_ of content for a reasonably low price. Frankly, any of The Sims expansion packs adds more new content than Civ 3 brings, and they cost less than half the price. And again, they never claimed to be more than an expansion pack for die hard fans. There's something, you know, HONEST in admitting it's just an expansion pack, instead of claiming it's "more Civ than ever."

Plus, they've given a lot of content for free even to people who don't want to buy expansion packs. There were all sorts of skin packs, item packs and so on, released every week for free for a long while. (It seems to have slowed down lately, though.)

	03-12-2001 12:38									#11
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You don't really think that firaxis doesn't release the source because there scared of somebody going better do you??

	03-12-2001 12:38									#12
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True, Maxis gives the massed good support. That I applaud. And Will did go off and do things people told him would fail. I admire that.

quote: I believe Will Wright doesn't belong anywhere NEAR a comparison with Firaxis.

Hmmm, you do know how Sim Golf was made, right?

	03-12-2001 12:39									#13
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Deer Hunter kicks ass. Who has never dreamed of killing Bambi?

and yes I agree, although I think you are exaggerrating things a bit. Civ3 isn't that bad, yet. But imagine how bad civ4 will be

	03-12-2001 12:43									#14
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and what 4 turn cap are you talking about? I have got techs in 3 turns before- this was in my very first game on chieftan level. Haven't got that since, but in the harder levels it is very difficult to get enough science to even apprach 3 turns (impossible to get copernicus' etc)

	03-12-2001 12:45									#15
	Remove this text

quote: Tech Progression "More or Less" Capped at 4 Turns

And nobody told me Bambi makes a cameo in Deer Hunter!!!

	03-12-2001 12:47									#16
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A collective move feature would be handy, moving big stacks can be a chore. The rest of it seems very subjective to me. Units that stay competative longer rewards mediocre play? Er... How is devoting more or less resources to technology or army mass mediocre? It's a legitimate military tradeoff, unless you're talking about it from the famed "realism" perspective.

MP is something I feel I must have even though I will use it maybe 4 times. I just don't have the time but feel it must be included.

I won't use an editor much but will use scenarios, so I feel I need that.

EDIT: I'm not being sarcastic, I really do very much want, even demand, those 2 features be included ASAP. I just recognize that I personally, as distinct from the civ community, won't use them very often.

The rest of the critics seem to be longing to play Civ2, and feeling that their way of progress is the only way. That just doesn't seem a valid gripe to me. I'm sorry Yin's honeymoon is over, he had some smart little reviews and views on the game. I think it's back to the flame-warrior style of game evaluation however.

Let the manifestos fly

	03-12-2001 12:48									#17
	Got spare money?

quote: and yes I agree, although I think you are exaggerrating things a bit. Civ3 isn't that bad, yet. But imagine how bad civ4 will be

So you mean they have already made a Civ3?

quote: You don't really think that firaxis doesn't release the source because there scared of somebody going better do you??

Well, I was being slightly sarcastic in that statement, but there is also some truth behind it. Look what has already been done to the game even with limited tools by mine and your fellow Apolytoneers.

	03-12-2001 12:56									#18
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quote: Originally posted by TechWins So you mean they have already made a Civ3?

huh?

	03-12-2001 13:00									#19
	Increase Your PM Length

I am still waiting to see what the first patch does for CivIII.

No, Firaxogrames CAN NOT be excused for what it is/has been doing. There are just some inexcusables going on, and I think sales ARE going to suffer from it.

But... I still have an inkling of hope for CivIII.

The first patch will tell all.

	03-12-2001 13:05									#20
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quote: huh?

I was making a joke in that I thought only Civ2.5 was released and not Civ3.

quote: I am still waiting to see what the first patch does for CivIII.

What about all the people who know about a patch? What are they goind to do then (that is to say if the patch really does live up to it's expectations)? The game should have not been released the way it was released. Also, don't get your hopes up on the patch; Firaxis screwed you over once they might just do it again.

	03-12-2001 13:26									#21
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Oooh. That's a provocative post! Well and good, to the extent that it challenges those inclined to hero worship and blind fan support. But it misses the mark.

I think the changing dynamics of the game market are driving this, more than a free will decision by Meier (don't call him Sid, he's not your buddy) or Firaxis. The growing concentration of ownership in all aspects of the economy has not bypassed the computer gaming business. Smaller businesses like Microprose have been swallowed up by fewer and fewer giants like Hasbro and now, Infogrames. Despite this concentration of ownership, there still exists a high degree of competition for sales and profit margins continue to be sqeezed.

The result is that only those games whose costs of production can be limited and which can achieve very high sales will be financially successfull. Given the need to cater to the mass market and achieve high sales, good graphics become increasingly important and marketing is more important than game development. Trading on brand names and personal reputations are key marketing strategies. Saving money and time during development is an overriding concern.

The fan community becomes important since its' committment produces vital feedback through playtesting and by suggesting new concepts - all free of charge and post-production. Thus the patch becomes a substitute for expensive in-house playtesting prior to production and release. But the fan community is a relatively small fraction of the total market and its' sophisticated demands are too expensive and, ultimately, unprofitable. So its' role is one of free labour helping in the design and playtesting of the game only. The broader mass market determines the actual content of the game, including the inevitable patch.

It's fine to say fans should give up on Firaxis. Their abysmal FR (Fan Relations) alone during this release might justify it. But the evolving economics of the industry has more to do with it than a breach of faith by Firaxis. In reality, they've become just another computer gaming corporation.

	03-12-2001 13:48									#22
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Very inciteful Tec. Unfortunately IMO all too correct. I think many people realized this but too many still fell into the "it couldn't happen to "civ3", that sort of thing doesn't apply to civ, trap...

	03-12-2001 13:54									#23
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Sorry, I don't buy those sorry excuses. Nobody ever asked for bobbing civ leader heads, which no doubt sent art production costs through the roof.

No, this is horrid management and a willing decision to make a crap game with crap PR.

If you guys are willing to play slop because you think the big bad market demands it, I'm happy for what will be many great titles for you coming down the line.

	03-12-2001 14:32									#24
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh I think the changing dynamics of the game market are driving this, more than a free will decision by Meier (don't call him Sid, he's not your buddy) or Firaxis.

Well, I sometimes call hin "Sid" as I do with "Dan", not because they are my buddies (may be I'd enjoy to have them as my friends, but they are lucky and never meet me ).

It's simple a short way to identify them, not a way to have less respect about them. My apologize to them, if anyone care about this.

quote: The fan community becomes important since its' committment produces vital feedback through playtesting and by suggesting new concepts - all free of charge and post-production. Thus the patch becomes a substitute for expensive in-house playtesting prior to production and release. But the fan community is a relatively small fraction of the total market and its' sophisticated demands are too expensive and, ultimately, unprofitable. So its' role is one of free labour helping in the design and playtesting of the game only. The broader mass market determines the actual content of the game, including the inevitable patch.

The core of your analysis is interesting and, to some extent, very similar to mine opinion too.

Still Firaxis DID a lot of bad moves, not smart also considering economics aspect: they missed the opportunity of a free fan beta test, because they know they must rush out the game also if quite relevant bugs are discovered.
The dedicated gamers community would eat them alive if ignored after a detailed game test buglist/unbalanced issue, so they ignored them from start.

Design input and suggestion where a lot, but they don't spent too much time (if not on a personal basis) interacting and replying to legitim questions.

They cutted some relevant features they advertised until the last month, without a sincere explanation (and maybe some apologies shouldn't hurt, too ).

They overkill the MODDERS community enbarking on legal issue that let them negate their same words printed on the game box.

I'm still hoping in a patch that will make Civ III a decent game. I already explained that in Italy the game price is lower than real "Best Seller", so I can take the risk for a working time-filler.

Also, I'll like to check the improvement that some of mentioned MOD added to the game... at least until Infogrames don't sue us for copyright infringment

I know it will be a silly move to take that risk, but really, it'll hurt me too much to let the game pass and die after two years spent in the silly hope to help the design team...

	03-12-2001 14:48									#25
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Yes, Adm. says it well.

And if I want to call the man 'Sid,' I will. Who are you to tell me what to call him -- you aren't my buddy, right?

The games I play / look forward to the most when I go home these days are Space Empires 4 and Europa Universalis, neither of which has drop-dead graphics or lots of bells and whistles.

But they have enormously dedicated programmers with heaps of talent and a good sense that it is the community + tons of support that makes even a low-budget game highly enjoyable and economically successful.

It is Firaxis and Firaxis alone that has expanded its office space and total number of staff beyond its own capacities to make a game good enough to pay for it all. I predicted this two years ago.

Sorry, but I was right.

	03-12-2001 15:23									#26
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Well Yin, I sense that you are letting your biases cloud your judgement since you are only picking out the negative points of <em>Civ</em>.

First of all, what are "fluff" products? You didn't even define the term.

Secondly, yes, Firaxis made a lot of stupid moves with regards to <em>Civ 3</em>, but since you have failed to define "fluff products" so far, nothing more can be said about this.

Thirdly, Ditto, with regards to <em>SidGolf</em>.

<em>"Units that are a few AGES out of date are still competive: This rewards mediocity"</em>

Until the modern age, or at least the industrial age, there were little real difference between units. This is more <em>realistic</em>, Yin. However, I suppose some people just want everything done their way

<em>"200 units or more can only be moved one at a time at a time at a time at a time at a time at a time at a time at a time at a time at a time (<---typing that was just as fun as mid to late game Civ3). This rewards mindless clicking. Firaxis clearly did not have a serious gamer in mind when making Civ3. They made fluff."</em>

What a grave transgression! So, just because you can't make stacks out of units these games are fluff? That makes <em>Civ 2</em> and <em>SMAC/X</em> fluff then. As a matter of fact, you can't move stacks of units in <em>Europa Universalis</em> either: ergo, it must be fluff.

<em>"Tech Progression More or Less Capped at 4 Turns: Rewards mediocrity. "</em>

Is this a built-in limitation or is this caused by your own incompetent play?

<em>"Lack of True Modding Ability: Spits in the serious gamers' face. "</em>

Serious gamers are not necessarily serious modders, and vice versa. BTW, what are "serious gamers?" At any rate, you should realise by now that Sid makes games for <strong>fun</strong>.

<em>Lack of MP: See Above.</em>

More Yin silliness. Most serious gamers can't care less about MP. An informal survey took place on ACS bore that out.

Stop spamming Yin. Make all your points in one post

	03-12-2001 16:08									#27
	EU2 Stacking Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

OK, declaration of interest first:

1) I loved Civ I and II. Spent ages developing scenarios for Civ II and multiplaying online and PBEM games.

2) Got Civ III and got bored/frustrated very quickly. I have now de-installed the game. I don't deny many people are keen on the game, and all power to them. It is only entertainment, after all, and you have to get your jollies where you can find them. Maybe Civ 3.1 will be playable for guys like me, but I'm not holding my breath!

Perhaps Yin's (and my) disappointment is the keener because of the expectation factor he describes.

quote: As a matter of fact, you can't move stacks of units in Europa Universalis either

I think you can, actually. (Well seems to work for me.) Try shift-clicking the units, or drawing a box around the desired units before you give them movement orders. Of course, you can always merge armies/navies, but the shift-click keeps them organised as they originally were, under their original leaders.

I have to recommend EU2 to those turned off by Civ III's well-documented "newbie-friendliness". The game is not perfect, but I rate it very highly, perhaps even more highly than Civ II (!) - certainly as a diplomacy/wargame.



John

	03-12-2001 16:33									#28
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quote: Is this a built-in limitation or is this caused by your own incompetent play?

The game is easily, boringly easy. Need some pointers, troll?

	03-12-2001 16:39									#29
	Got spare money?

As for 'fluff,' I guess I'll give you the free English lesson, troll. This would cost you money in most cases, but since you seem so genuinely ignorant of basic vocabulary. Here are the 3rd and 4th meanings:

3 : something inconsequential
4 : BLUNDER

Need more explaining? Rhetorical question.

"Inconsequential" Look it up. Needless to say, I think Civ3's impact will be inconsequential to the genre. Why? Because it's too easy too boring and too imcompetently made.

"Blunder" I'll let you have the thrill of intellectual discovery, if it doesn't tax you too much.

Last edited by yin26 on 03-12-2001 at 16:45

	03-12-2001 16:50									#30
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Oh, and I forgot to say how hard I laughed at the image of you enjoying your 200 clicks per turn to move workers around the map! Don't break yourself bending over so much, pally.