04-12-2001 03:34									#1
	Extra Pack Finalization Project (part 2) Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

OK, here are the next 4 Civs. (That shall not mean discussion for the first part is over yet!)

Vikings:

Names: Vikings, the Vikings, Viking
Ruler/Title: Knut/ King
Leaders:
Harald Fairhair, Leif Eriksson, Erik Bloodaxe, Harald Hardrada, Harald Bluetooth,
Magnus
UU: Drakkar (1/1/4; T2); replaces trireme, can go on sea squres
CSA: Expansionist, Commercial
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Monarchy, Democracy
Cities:
Trondheim
Oslo
Stockholm
Copenhagen
Reykjavik
Uppsala
Göteborg
Odense
Bergen
Linköping
Birka
Sigtuna
Roskilde
Lejre
Jellinge
Haithabu
Lund
Jorvik
Ribe
Brattahlid
Gardar
Hvarf
Torshavn
Kvivik
Sandur
Sandavagur
Jarlshof
Veigsfjordur
Vikingalo
Hlymrekur
Dyflinn
Kaupang
Jarrow
Thingvollur
Maeshowe
Thingvellir
Vedrafjord
Fyrkat
Kjönugard
Holmgard
Jomsborg
Nonnebakken
Lade
Borg
Vinland


Turks

Names: Turkey, the Turks, Turk
Ruler/Title: Mehmed/Sultan
Leaders:
Osman, Murad, Selim, Alp Arslan, Tughril Beg, Koprulu Pasha, Sokolli Pasha, Piri Reis, Kara Mustafa, Atatürk
UU: Janissary (3/3/2); replaces musketman; requires Saltpeter
CSA: Militaristic, Expansionist
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Democracy, Monarchy
Cities:
Istanbul
Ankara
Bursa
Konya
Iznik
Izmit
Aydin
Qaraman
Izmir
Trabzon
Diyarbakir
Mardin
Malatya
Sivas
Adana
Kayseri
Amasya
Kutahya
Denizli
Aksaray
Aksehir
Silifke
Antalya
Erzincan
Erzurum
Kars
Nigde
Sinop
Edirne
Ayas
Bitlis

Phoenicians

Names: Phoenicia, the Phoenicians, Phoenician
Ruler/Title: Hannibal/Sufet?
Leaders: Hiram, Hamilkar, Hasdrubal, Hanno
UU: Quniquireme (1/2/3 [T3]); replaces trireme
CSA: Expansionist, Commercial
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Communism, Republic
Cities:
Tyre
Byblos
Carthago
Sidon
Arvad
Gadir
Utica
Hadrumet
Ugarit
Marathus
Tripoli
Berytus
Baalbek
Zaraphath
Ushu
Accho
Joppa
Dor
Citium/Kition
Motya
Panormus
Nora
Sulci
Tharros
Malaca
Sexi
Carmona
Abdera
Baria
Eivissa
Tingis
Leptis
Sabratha
Oea
Tacape
Neapolis
Zama
Hippo Diarrhytus
Tipasa
Siga
Lixus
Mogador
Karatepe
Carthago Nova
Tarshish
Jubeil
Ophir
Marisa
Shechem
Ashdod
Enkomi
Curium
Paphos
Amathus
Cossrya
Lilybaeum
Melita
Olbia
Caralis
Bitia
Ebusus
Lucentum
Djerba
Thapsus
Rachgoun
Kerkouane
Thasos
Wasta
Umm el-Amed
Sarepta
Palaetyrus


Mayas

Names: Maya, the Mayas, Mayan
Ruler/Title: Pacal/ Bacab
Leaders: Nachi Cocom, Cecilio Chi, Hunak Ke’el
UU: Balam Warrior (1/2/1); replaces Warrior
CSA: Religious, Scientific
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Democracy, Monarchy
Cities:
Tikal
Chichen Itza
Palenque
Mayapan
Uxmal
Tulum
Yaxchilan
Izamal
Copan
Bonampak
Labna
Seibal
Koba
Kaminaljuyu
Izapa
Uaxactun
Qumaar Kah
Altun Ha
Lamanai
Kabah
Edzna
Becan
Ake
Xcaret
Loltun
Tayasal
Xpuhil
Balankanche
Dzibilchaltun
Hochob
Ekbalam
Cozumel
Culuba
Iximche
Kalakmul
Tazumal
Lubaantun
Dzibilnocac
Xunantunich
Yaxche Xlapbak
Ikil
Sayil
Xcavil de Yaxche
Tonina
Pok Ta Pok
Oxkintok
Chincultic
Chicanna
Chacmultun
Yaxuna
Nakum
Muyil
Axanceh
Chinkultic
Chacalal
Nohmul
Abaj Takalik
Tohkok
Mul Chic
Tankah
Kuhunlich
Corozal
Quelepa
Nakbe
Yaxha
Topoxte
Zaculeu
Ulua

Last edited by Wernazuma III on 27-03-2002 at 16:33

	04-12-2001 03:57									#2
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UU for vikings: drakkar

Yes, I know, it's the same as longboat, but I think it's a better name.

It should be a fast unit, with a good units capacity.

	04-12-2001 04:10									#3
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I thought more to disable the "sink in ocean" handicap for the longboats, maybe make them one point faster. Troop capacity yet seems strange to me when I take a look at a longboat (less than a trireme I'd guess).
I've decided for "longboat" for reasons of recognition by the average player.

	04-12-2001 05:49									#4
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Moving on fast Wernazuma

Alright, some suggestions once more:

- Vikings

Longboat (or Drakkar - I too like that name better) is a fine UU and I think you should keep the "can cross ocean" ability (after all they did cross the ocean ) and drop the extra movement.
And I guess you mean "shunned democracy, favored monarchy", am I right?


- Turks

It is my NSH opinion that Istanbul should be out - it was a Roman-Greek city under the name of Constantinoupolis (Constantinople, if you like it) and they Turks just got it by force 1100 after it's establishment.
The Jannisary should be a musketman with higher attack rating and maybe mobility. You could make him a 3-3-2 unit or a 2-4-2. It was an early musket (or arquebuzier) unit after all.


- Phoenicia

Quinquinreme was an upgraded trireme (not excactly five rows of paddles, but certainly twice the capacity of carrying and more solid in a sea battle - if there was enough room to manouvre it). You can try one extra movement point, or one extra defense.

	04-12-2001 07:10									#5
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Aren't the mayas the ones with Jaguar warriors?

	04-12-2001 07:50									#6
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The Turkish UU should really be the spahi/sipahi, as they were not simply a military unit, but also a class, rather like Reichsrittern in the Holy Roman Empire; they were a large, centrally controlled cavalry force. The spahi/sipahi owned his horse, and was armed with bow, sword, shield, lance and mace, an dif he had an income in excess of a certain amount, he would be armour clad, too, and would also have to provide a 'cebelu', a fully armed horseman, for each three thousand akces of timar income.
I have always felt that the Janissary was too close to the Mameluke to be truly unique, each being a slave caste of a kind.

	04-12-2001 08:47									#7
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Personally I would keep Jann for the Turks and change Arabs' Mameluke, which has a very Ottoman flavour for me.

Also, for the sake of simplicity, keep Istanbul. Yes, yes, we all wish poor old Byzantium hadn't gotten the historical shaft, but there you go. I mean Washington is founded by the Americans in 4000 BC, Istanbul can be founded by the Turks. We aren't talking about Ancient History 101 here.

	04-12-2001 12:01									#8
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Thanks for all the input guys.

El Awrence: You're absolutely right, from point of accuracy, jaguar warrior would be much better. Marquis de Sodaq proposed "Balam Warrior" (mayan for jaguar warrior) as a distinction to the aztec UU. The problem is only that creating 2 identical UUs is probably no good idea. We'll have to see; if we can manage to get 15 new UUs with all different attributes, the mayans should have their really unique unit too; if we can't avoid anyway, we should probably change it.

Rosacrux: I meant the govs as I put it. After all, Iceland is the oldest democracy of the world and most viking states had their "althing" (=parlament). Today's scandinavian countries seem to be good as democracies too, so there goes my point.
I will make a small poll about Drakkar/Longboat to see what people really want. The Quinquireme should not have an extra movement, the additional rows did not make it faster but much slower because the ship got so much heavier and less dynamic; I'd go for an extra defence and more capacity.

I agree with Jason about Istanbul; thank god we don't have Byzantines, otherwise we'd have 4 candidates for Byzantion/Byzantium/Constantinople/Istanbul now...
I also agree that we should rethink the Mameluk. Nevertheless we should keep it an option for it's easily recognizable as being an arab UU.

	04-12-2001 12:33									#9
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Just a couple of corrections/suggestions on the Vikings:

The city listed first in their city list should be Trondheim, not Trondhiem :-)
I like the list of leaders too, but for consistency perhaps Harald Hardraade should have his "last name" in English too, along with Fairhair and Bluetooth? It would translate to something like "Harshrule" or "Strictrule". If not, the correct spelling of his name is at least Hardraade, not Haardrade.


Looking forward to seeing this "expansion" pack, but is there any way of already adding new civs by yourself, or is there some hardcoded part that cannot be touched by the community?

	04-12-2001 12:37									#10
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Turks should have their capital at Ankara, since (IIRC) that's what it was when they were just one little state among others during the fall of Byzantine power.

	04-12-2001 16:23									#11
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thanks peoux: very helpful.

Trondhiem was a typo, an embarassing one though
I'll make the corrections.
BTW: We can add new Civs. There is lamentably obviously a bug in the editor that messes up the tech tree when changing rules though, but there are people apt to make the changes (not me ).

Stefu: It's very difficult to decide between Istanbul and Ankara. Both have their points in favor, both have been capital for quite some time... I've decided on Istanbul, because it is more important as a city. But if there is continuing discontent about that (this seems to be a very controversial point) maybe we should make a poll on that.

	04-12-2001 17:22									#12
	A female Phoenitian leader Tired of ads?

Since Hanibal is from Carthage, why not add Dido?

I think she is the female Leader in CIV II Tot.
Also she is a famous legendary leader, from Virgilius Roma Epic, the Enneid (I'm sure I've mispelled that one!).

	04-12-2001 18:37									#13
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I did not add Dido, because I think it's no good idea to add a mythical person if we have enough historical ones.

	04-12-2001 18:43									#14
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I've added "Sufet" as phoenician title. Sufets in Carthage are what Consuls were in Rome.

I've changed Longboat to Drakkar Galley;

Yet open points:

Is king a good title for Viking rulers? Titles should if possible be in the native language of civilizations, that adds a feeling of uniqueness.
Is everyone happy with the Civs' UUs?

When that is solved, I'll start Part 3.

Last edited by Wernazuma III on 04-12-2001 at 18:50

	04-12-2001 23:54									#15
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quote: Is king a good title for Viking rulers?

Yes.

quote: I like the list of leaders too, but for consistency perhaps Harald Hardraade should have his "last name" in English too, along with Fairhair and Bluetooth?

Actually, even though it doesn't make much sense, his "official" English name is Hardrada.

	05-12-2001 15:16									#16
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BTW, I've taken a glance at Civ abilities and noted that two civ pairs already have the same abilities. Both Vikings and Carthagians are Com-Exp and both Mongols and Turks are Mil-Exp. I think that we should strive for as little of two civs with same abilities as possible.

	05-12-2001 18:55									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu BTW, I've taken a glance at Civ abilities and noted that two civ pairs already have the same abilities. Both Vikings and Carthagians are Com-Exp and both Mongols and Turks are Mil-Exp. I think that we should strive for as little of two civs with same abilities as possible.

Well: Consider that there are only 15 possible combinations of Civ abilities, and 16 civs included with the game, we're bound to run into "doubles", even triples. This isn't a problem really, and it's still possible to customize each civilization further by defining what the AI for each prefers to build.

	05-12-2001 18:57									#18
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werna, I just feel that the plumed archer is just another ruddy AoK rip off.
You could make the Jaguar warrior, but give it a different attribute to the Aztec ones. If the Aztec has defence, make the Jaguar offense, or more mobile.

About the Drakkar, just call it Drakkar, sounds much better.

	05-12-2001 20:08									#19
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Mayans: No comments here, except to reiterate that the plumed archer is an AoK ripoff. I think the idea el Awrence had was a good one. Instead of this archer bunkum have the Balam Warrior with one less offense and one more defense point than the Jaguar Warrior.

Turks: Is everyone sure about the expansionist characteristic? While it can't be argued that the Turkish civilization didn't expand, I feel the label should be reserved for a civ that expanded to an unusual degree, which the Turks really didn't (at least not compared to other civs like England or Rome). I think perhaps commercial or scientific would be a better attribute than expansionist. As with the Arabs, I think Communism, not Democracy should be shunned, as the Turkish government of the moment is Democratic, though arguably a bit overzealous in its application of rules dividing church and state.

Vikings: My only comment here is that when I saw Magnus I immediately associated to Magnus ver Magnusson (of the World's Strongest Man competitions). Just a flashback to 2AM ESPN2.

Phoenicians: Again, I'm not sure about the Expansionist label, though if the Carthaginian civilization is included under this umbrella it's probably accurate. Also, it was my understanding (though possibly flawed) that Dido was in fact a real, pseudo-mythic person (much as Odysseus and Agammemnon were real people whose lives have been buried in myth).

	05-12-2001 22:42									#20
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Oh, wow, much things to comment, great!

1. I'm confused, I'll call Harald Harrararararraar simply "Hardrada", case closed.

About the CSA-pairs, mybe triples. I try to look that we don't get too many, but we shouldn't see evading pairs just as a doctrine.
If we get too many in the end, we'll discuss, which we can change.

El Awrence: The Mayan UU hurts me too, after all I'm working a little bit on precolumbian history and know it's not correct to have a plumed archer. I didn't know that it's also an AoK unit, never played that game. I only remembered that the Balam Warrior wasn't too popular in my thread. The Aztec Jaguar Warrior is simply a warrior with one additional movement point. If we make the balam warrior a 1.2.1 unit, we produce an early and cheap spearman for the mayans (spearmen would thus get obsolete too for mayans). I'm not sure, it could work. In addition, we wouldn't have to change graphics. Anyway, it's probably best to change it.


Drakkar Galley --> Drakkar

Bad Ax: I'll go in detail later, lack of time...

	05-12-2001 23:57									#21
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Maybe we can reconcile the archer with the warrior... make it 2.1.1 like the archer, but make it a warrior replacement... that way it's like getting the archer from the start.

And, I meant, drop the galley, sounds and looks better.

	06-12-2001 02:52									#22
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I dropped the Galley...


Actually I'm very happy with the defensive bonus for Mayans. After all they weren't an offensive Civ, I feel much better about the mayan UU now.

Bad Ax: I wouldn't call the Turks scientific. Maybe militaristic, commercial would be an alternative, but I think for now we should keep it. I also still favor Democracy as shunned government. I mean, the turkish democracy is no really good example how it should work, it's a mixture of military dictatorship and democracy...

I agree more on maybe removing Expansionist for the Phoenicians though I'm not sure about which alternative. Militaristic?-nah; Religious-maybe; Scientific?-not exactly; industrious-maybe
About Dido (and Odysseus): I'd say more that Odysseus is a very mythical figure, who maybe was originally based upon a historical person but myth overformed this so much that the original person can't be recognised anymore. With Dido, that's even more the case, for we have no phoenician account of her.

	06-12-2001 06:38									#23
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Some useful Viking sites:

www.georgetown.edu/users/buckinsj/viking.htm

www.greenland-guide.dk/narsaq-tourist/history.htm

www.dur.ac.uk/~dml0www/variagi.html

www.anthro.mankato.msus.edu/prehist...ngs/vikgrn.html

www.dur.ac.uk/~dml0www/variagi.html

www.allaboutirish.com/library/history/vikings.htm

	06-12-2001 06:42									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III I dropped the Galley...

Oooops, hadn't realised.

	06-12-2001 16:53									#25
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One problem with your list of Phoenician cities and Greek ones, there is two cities called "Abdera" one is in Greece and other is in Spain.

	06-12-2001 18:15									#26
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I don't know about the hiberian Abdera but there was an Abdera in Greece, in a place called Chalkidiki - close to Thesaloniki.

It has nothing to do with Phoenicia, though. It's a genuine ancient greek city state.

	06-12-2001 18:25									#27
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I have waited long for Vikings just because that I am from scandinavia so...

I like the most things of your idea BUT not the order the city was placed, Göteborg, Stockholm, Oslo is pretty new cities instead of using them in top place Birka and some older cities instead...

CSA: Expansionist, Commercial?
I am unsure if this really is correct but I think that will be good, but an other idea is Militaristisk, Commercial. I mean that the viking religion was alot about war. If you were killed in battle, your soul was transfered to Valhall (paradise).

	06-12-2001 22:20									#28
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About CSAs: I've decided to take them out of discussion at this point. after having cleared everything else, I'll again post all CSAs and we can look, how to evade pairs of identical CSAs etc.

Greek Abdera is actually east of Chalkidike. Spanish Abdera is in the very south of the peninsula.
I actually didn't even notice that the Phoenician list includs Abdera. It's weird that a phoenician and greek city have the same name... i guess the name is of greek origin, but i've no idea. i'll remove it from the phoenician list.

waab: just propose a new order for viking cities, then I can judge better. i guess as swedish person you know better. other people can then complain to your address if they don't like it

	06-12-2001 22:37									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Greek Abdera is actually east of Chalkidike. Spanish Abdera is in the very south of the peninsula. I actually didn't even notice that the Phoenician list includs Abdera. It's weird that a phoenician and greek city have the same name... i guess the name is of greek origin, but i've no idea. i'll remove it from the phoenician list.

Spanish Abdera is actual town called Adra (Almeria, South East Spain).

The Spanish one is older than greeks, the spanish was founded in VIIIBC and greek in 550BC so...

	08-12-2001 02:01									#30
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Okay I will post my suggestion on monday hasn't time over the weekend to much to do...