04-12-2001 04:55									#1
	Proper Cruise Missiles Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Personally I cant stand the way cruise missiles are implemented right now, so using the editor ive changed them to How I think a Cruise Missile should act.

Ok here are the stats:

I changed them to air units with Re-base and Bombing missions. They will load onto and fire from carriers and cities.

Prereq: Same as cruise missile
Cost: 120 sheilds
Operational Range: 6
Bombard: 12 ROF: 3

Designer Notes :

I balanced it as best I could think of, though I havent playtested it in the Modern Age. Ive only tested that they do work as planned (in the medieval age). As I have no saves in the modern age ill have to wait until I get there. If anyone else wishes to test and change then post here, great.

The premise now is a powerful one-time use air raid unit, (mainly a city buster). They have 50% more strength then the bomber/stealth bomber. I doubled the cost, which is now 20 more than the bomber but only half the cost of the stealth bomber. Due their power this price is justified.

Given it is "realistically" hard to shoot down a cruise missile I was tempted to give it stealth, but I felt this would overbalance it. So it has a 50% chance to be shot down like the bomber. I was also tempted to give it precision bombing as well, but for the same reason I decided not to. This could lead to some better (IMO) strategies such as Prec. bombing SAM sites then launching cruise missiles at a city.

The AI will use the adapt to the changed missile no problem (in playtesting I had to use them in the medieval age just to make sure they worked, and I got a crapload of them down my throat by the AI )

Well im getting long winded so enjoy and post some constructive (or not) criticism here so we can balance this into a proper unit.

Attachment: civ3mod.zip
This has been downloaded 966 time(s).

	04-12-2001 11:12									#2
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I have made cruise missiles air units as well. But I am regretting it due to a big problem with the game. As air units, they can be intercepted by fighters and stealth fighters- which is totally unrealistic and silly. I tried giving them Stealth so they are harder to shoot down, but still, they should never be shot down.

	05-12-2001 19:03									#3
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Actually, it is realistic that ceartain percentage would be lost. Cruise missiles don't fly much faster than a jetfighter, and usually slower. The advantage of the cruise missile is it's stealthyness. The only missile that cannot be taken out with convential means is an ICBM, as they are traveling at orbital velocity (around 15-20,000 mph).

	05-12-2001 19:44									#4
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Yes, fezick31, during WWII, several V-1 missiles were shot down by brithish spitfire pilots, by using aerodynamics to thrust them into the sea.

	07-12-2001 12:26									#5
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actually missles get shot down all the time.. by other missles. that's pretty much all that naval surface warfare is today. Rarely ever does anyone actually park a battle ship in your harbor and they pound you to death. well against modern nations... ;p

naval vs naval surface warefare is espically missle anti-missle. The range of a anti-ship, or anti-land missle verus those deck canons is like the differnce in range between someone with a knife and someone with a rifle.

	07-12-2001 16:41									#6
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Yes, I concur with the comments in this thread ... this is one mod that i'm actually going to use ... and I don't normally.

	10-12-2001 18:35									#7
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So many cruise missles where shot down in Yugoslavia during "Air strikes"

	11-12-2001 03:08									#8
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One got shot down, one crashed because of mechanical failure. The rest were shot down by Serbian propaganda.

	11-12-2001 19:45									#9
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Any way to mod Civ3 to allow Nuc Sub's to be used as a Cruise Missile platform as they are in Real Life (Kursk probably being the best known Cruise Missile Sub).

Sith

	11-12-2001 20:53									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Krypter One got shot down, one crashed because of mechanical failure. The rest were shot down by Serbian propaganda.

Mechanical faliure == American propaganda

At least in my opinion.

Realy, the best tech country with so many mechanical faliures.
A little to much suspicious.


Correct wording would be:

Some got shot down by SAMS, some crashed because of Amercain propaganda (mechanical failure), some were should down by Serbian propaganda, and several others striked Chinese Emabssy (old maps they said ).

	11-12-2001 22:27									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

Now, serious.

Cruisse missiles are something shootable.

If you look some military magazines, wou'll know I am right.

Still, they were not shoot down to much often.
Cr. miss. usually strike the target.
But SAMs can deal with them.

At least some newer SAMs.

	12-12-2001 20:49									#12
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quote: Originally posted by SithUK Any way to mod Civ3 to allow Nuc Sub's to be used as a Cruise Missile platform as they are in Real Life (Kursk probably being the best known Cruise Missile Sub). Sith

Yes.

Leave the cruise missile as a ground unit.
Set the "Tactical Missile" flag.
Tick the "Load" unit special ability checkbox.

You can now load cruise missiles onto nuclear subs.

If you want AEGIS cruisers to be able to carry Cruise Missiles, but not Tactical Nukes, you can also make the following changes:

For the Cruise Missile:

Modify as above, plus:

Set the "Footsoldier" flag.

For the AEGIS cruiser:

Set the "Carry Tactical Missiles" and "Carry footsoldiers only" flags.
Tick the "Missile Transport" role box.
Increase the number of holds to the desired number. (2 seems to work fairly well).
Tick the "Unload" unit special ability.


I'm also toying with the idea of allowing Destroyers to carry one cruise missile each. This would have no effect until Rocketry, but would give Modern Destroyers an extra bit of punch.

	13-12-2001 02:14									#13
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IMO, Cruise missiles should have the same movement characterizstics as tacitical nukes.

	13-12-2001 18:36									#14
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I just give the cruise missiles a bombard range of 6- this seems to work well, without changing their characterstics too much.

	14-12-2001 04:24									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Nemesis of the North Yes, fezick31, during WWII, several V-1 missiles were shot down by brithish spitfire pilots, by using aerodynamics to thrust them into the sea.

By "aerodynamics", if I recall correctly, spitfire pilots would line up aside the V1 with one wing slightly below the V1's, then execute a tight turn, flipping the V1's wing and the cruise missile out of control -- and, no, I'm not kidding!

-Oz

	14-12-2001 08:23									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Ozymandias By "aerodynamics", if I recall correctly, spitfire pilots would line up aside the V1 with one wing slightly below the V1's, then execute a tight turn, flipping the V1's wing and the cruise missile out of control -- and, no, I'm not kidding! -Oz

And that was only after they ahd run out of bullets shooting the darn things down!

	16-12-2001 08:03									#17
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Cruise missiles are the only bombard units in the game that can actually destroy an enemy unit. Is this still the case after using this mod?

	23-12-2001 05:58									#18
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I was testing and tweaking with the cruise missile. Basically it was the same as Thoth. I made the regular sub carry up to 2-3 cruise missiles. I know it looks like a German U-boat but during WWII the Germans were experimenting with V-2 launch pads on board there subs. I also improved the Nuclear sub's cargo hold to carry 6 missiles.
Now I can bombard costal cities and opposing civ's ships.

	05-01-2002 02:06									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Civfan01 I was testing and tweaking with the cruise missile. Basically it was the same as Thoth. I made the regular sub carry up to 2-3 cruise missiles. I know it looks like a German U-boat but during WWII the Germans were experimenting with V-2 launch pads on board there subs. I also improved the Nuclear sub's cargo hold to carry 6 missiles. Now I can bombard costal cities and opposing civ's ships.

Cool! gotta to try that when i get home. I don't know what Firaxis was thinking. One question: Does the AI carry them on their subs too? And any weird problems, like being able to carry soldiers on your AEGIS?

	12-01-2002 13:38									#20
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I'm not sure I'm following this thread right.
I like the changes I've heard but it sounds like you've all made different changes that have some conflicting effects.

I'm having trouble reconciling the idea of bombarding like an air unit and the one-time use of missiles.

Does the cruise missile still get "used up"?
Can it be intercepted like an air unit if you've made it a footsoldier ?
If its an air unit, can it be loaded onto nuc subs?
If its bombard, can it hit other ships?
What about that thing where air units can't sink ships?
If its not bombard, does that mean it can't hurt infrastructure?

	13-01-2002 23:59									#21
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You are certanly have a lot of consern of this mod. I am going to awnswer some that Captain has posted:

quote: Does the cruise missile still get "used up"?

Yes, the cruise missle does run out. Just like a unmodified version. To eliminate the need to have a sub return to your land and reload, which can be time consuming, on my mod I checked off Re-base. Now you can load cruse missiles onto a sub just using the airbase command.(Just think of it as a small supply ship going to the sub.)

quote: Can it be intercepted like an air unit if you've made it a footsoldier ?

No, just as long it has just a regular bombardment checked and funcuns like a tactical Missile. The foot soldier is optional.

quote: If its an air unit, can it be loaded onto nuc subs?

No, Air units does not have tactical missle enabled. So you dont have to worry about acidently re-basing any air unit onto a sub.

quote: If its bombard, can it hit other ships?

Yes, It just depends on the unit's base hit points and defense score.

quote: What about that thing where air units can't sink ships?

Air units can sink ships but it is a long process if you are trying to sink an elite battleship.

quote: If its not bombard, does that mean it can't hurt infrastructure?

If it has bombardment enabled it curtanly can elimitate an opposing civ's infrastructure(Tile Improvements) and your civ's infrastructure if youre not carefull.

And one last question from Jazz

quote: Does the AI carry them on their subs too? And any weird problems, like being able to carry soldiers on your AEGIS?

I am not sure. You dont need to worry about loading soldiers onto AEGIS cruisers. If the AEGIS cruser, Subs, etc. have both the load cappacity(example: can carry 2 land units) and Can Carry Tatical Missles enabled.

I hope these awnsers can help you beter understand the basic consepts of modifing cruse missles.

	15-01-2002 05:54									#22
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Thanks civfan01! That really helped - just one more question though:

if you make it so that missiles are footsoldiers, does that mean you CAN or CAN'T load regular soldiers onto ships where you only want to be able to load missiles?

	15-01-2002 07:12									#23
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A question from Captain:

quote: if you make it so that missiles are footsoldiers, does that mean you CAN or CAN'T load regular soldiers onto ships where you only want to be able to load missiles?

you cant load regular soldiers onto a ship that you want missles in them(Has can carry Tactical Missiles enabled), as long as Regular soldiers Does nothave tactical missile funtion enabled.

I hope this answer helps clarify any confusion about the Cruise Missile conflicting with any "Foot Solder" units.

Good luck on editing your cruise missle, Captain.

	23-03-2002 19:18									#24
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I think air units could only be loaded into units set as "aircraft carrier".
So when you set submarines/warships to carrier it should also able to base aircrafts shouldn't it?
If yes you can't base the air missile to these ships.

	18-04-2002 07:01									#25
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quote: I think air units could only be loaded into units set as "aircraft carrier"- kettyo.

True.

quote: So when you set submarines/warships to carrier it should also able to base aircrafts shouldn't it? -kettyo

Yes. Just as long as the cruise missle has tatical missle enabled and the ship/sub has the Can carry tatical missles enabled.

	18-04-2002 09:26									#26
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I updated my civ3mod like this:

1. I gave Cruise Missiles stealth - The reason for this is being in the military, and working with tomahawks I know it is next to impossible to detect one and shoot it down. A perfect example is in the Gulf War. Iraq had the 3rd best air defense system in the world and didn't detect a single one. In fact they flew through downtown Bagdad, and NONE were shot down. It is only now that there is a radar system that can detect one. The radar planes of today find it almost impossible to detect one unless they are dedicating themselves to strictly looking for one.

2. I gave the Aegis Cruiser the ability to carry them

3. I gave the stealth bomber the ability to carry them. B-52's, B-1 and B-2 are all configured to carry cruise missiles so why now have that reflected in the game. Russian bombers have been configured to carry them all the way back to the Bear Bomber.

Let me know what you all think.

	19-04-2002 18:59									#27
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They should also get precision bombing

	20-04-2002 14:17									#28
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For the new patch, If you flag Cruise Missile as an air unit, but also a Tactical Missile, and give Nuclear Sub. Transport Tactical Missiles Only and Transport Aircraft Only, it will carry the new 'air unit' Cruise Missile but not other aircraft.