04-12-2001 21:10									#1
	Should production shields acumulate like in SMAC? Increase Your PM Length

In SMAC you could have production shields accumulated to the next unit/improvement. In Civ 3 all the surplus is lost.

I have studied Industrial Organization. And I learned that factories nowadays are flexible enough to maximize the production line.
So, what I propose is that within an industrious/modern age technology the ability to use the surplus should be enabled. I think it would be quite realistic, and the player shouldn't have to micromanage this much. Especially in the late game...

	04-12-2001 21:28									#2
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quote: So, what I propose is that within an industrious/modern age technology the ability to use the surplus should be enabled.

No, because by the Industrial/Modern period, cities tend to become stronger in production anyway. Giving production an extra bonus can and would lead to "runaway" scenarios where e.g. a city builds two or even three units per turn.

Cities become big production powerhouses by the late game with a half-decent city being able to build Mech. Inf. in a few turns etc.

I'd rather Firaxis spent their time fixing bugs or addressing some of the other gameplay issues raised here rather than tweaking something which is fundamentally OK.

	04-12-2001 21:40									#3
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quote: Originally posted by rid102 Cities become big production powerhouses by the late game with a half-decent city being able to build Mech. Inf. in a few turns etc.

If they are too powerful for you, then they're too powerful for everybody!
I'm not talking about a 10 or 15 shield surplus here! I'm just saying that this way you don't need to cycle through all your cities which are 1 turn away from finishing its production, so that you don't need to pick up a working citizen from a mine and place it on a flooding plain just because the shields that citizen would produce would be lost otherwise!
And that kind of micromanagement I consider as absolutely ridiculous!

	04-12-2001 22:32									#4
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quote: If they are too powerful for you, then they're too powerful for everybody!

I didn't say they were too powerful. Rather production increases as your level of industrialisation increases. It's balanced enough as it is IMHO.

quote: I'm not talking about a 10 or 15 shield surplus here!

But that's what can and does happen in the Industrial and Modern Era's.

Besides, even if it was added as a micro-management shortcut, some players would just abuse it and use to turn out two units/turn etc.

E.g. size 30 city with Iron Works and in a Golden Age will be cranking out 150+ sheilds per turn potentially.

quote: And that kind of micromanagement I consider as absolutely ridiculous!

I agree. Personally, I never bother doing that because it will lengthen your turns by a factor of about 5 and there is very little gain to be had (maybe a pop. point or two by the end of the game - but so what?).

Like I said before, a lot more stuff needs attention in this game.

	04-12-2001 23:11									#5
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quote: Originally posted by rid102 I didn't say they were too powerful. Rather production increases as your level of industrialisation increases. It's balanced enough as it is IMHO. But that's what can and does happen in the Industrial and Modern Era's.

Excuse me, but did you ever play SMAC?

	05-12-2001 03:44									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

I tottaly agree with you Zealot, it would be a clever way of dealing with those lost shields.

	05-12-2001 05:10									#7
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Very good idea zealot. its always frustrating to have 99 shields, and still take 3 turns to make battleships, while a city with 67 shields could do the exact same! Its better to actually get use out of these 32 extra shields, rather than going around rippin up irrigation and digging mines to get it over that 100, then having the city starve

and very good point about micromanagement. that 1 pop may not matter vs the AI, but when MP comes out, games will be so close EVERYTHING counts, and mp in civ games takes long enough without 16 people going to every city to put people on irrigation every turn

	05-12-2001 19:59									#8
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Thank you for your input. But I expect more from the comunity on this subject. Let's hope this poll is somewhat useful!

	05-12-2001 21:40									#9
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	05-12-2001 22:14									#10
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Yes, I played SMAC... I wasn't aware though that it was some Holy Grail by which all other games are supposed to be measured though...

Do you not think players will abuse this "feature" though?

E.g. look on the strategy section about rush building via population. Quite a small, seemingly innocent gameplay enhancer that is actually a complete game unbalancer and allows players to build insane numbers of units long before you'd normally otherwise get that far.

	05-12-2001 22:25									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

No offence, but it seems to me that rid102 is going rather over the top on what would be a fairly minor change. I for one would like to see this change, which would certainly reduce the need for micro-management without having to forfeit sheilds in the "carry over".

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that the change allow multiple units to be built at once, nor make rush builds easier.

	05-12-2001 22:38									#12
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I was just pointing out that a lot of stuff can and will get abused by players if possible... if you think that's OTT then try reading some of the strat. section...

I also questioned how many people actually bother to MM down to such a pedantic level... I don't with Civ3 and never have done with Civ1/Civ2 either.

quote: I don't think that anyone is suggesting that the change allow multiple units to be built at once, nor make rush builds easier.

Unfortunately, it will because that's a side effect of what's being suggested here. E.g. think of a city producing 20 shields/turn and building a Warrior. Where is the excess going to go? Into another Warrior? OK Then you're building two units per turn. If the shields accumulate in the resource box (without building a second warrior) then build 10 warriors (each in a single turn btw) and you have 100 resources for free. Build 60 Warriors (in 60 turns) and you get a Wonder for free at the end of it. That's silly.

	05-12-2001 23:29									#13
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quote: Originally posted by rid102 Unfortunately, it will because that's a side effect of what's being suggested here. E.g. think of a city producing 20 shields/turn and building a Warrior. Where is the excess going to go? Into another Warrior? OK Then you're building two units per turn. If the shields accumulate in the resource box (without building a second warrior) then build 10 warriors (each in a single turn btw) and you have 100 resources for free. Build 60 Warriors (in 60 turns) and you get a Wonder for free at the end of it. That's silly.

If you can get a city producing 20 shields a turn, you wouldn't certainly use them on warriors!
So I really don't see where there is the sillyness beside your own explanation!
And if you don't micromanage to this point, good. But a LOT of players do. Especially on MP games. And that is dull.

	06-12-2001 23:12									#14
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	06-12-2001 23:20									#15
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I'm personally not hot and bothered about it, I guess they could add it in as an option if enough people ask for it. I would rather that you would have to research a tech for it before it went into effect, though (Industrial Organization).

But then that would be a lot to ask of a patch.

	06-12-2001 23:34									#16
	Re: Should production shields acumulate like in SMAC? Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Zealot In SMAC you could have production shields accumulated to the next unit/improvement. In Civ 3 all the surplus is lost.

AFAIK, in SMAC only the first ten surplus shields were transferred to the next unit/improvement. The rest was lost, too. (Ten shields corresponded to the cost of the cheapest unit, BTW.)

To avoid multiplayer micromanagement nightmares in Civ3 (that is, while still providing multiplayer ), this SMAC feature is a must. I´d even suggest that any surplus shields in excess of ten should be converted to gold according to the player´s current ability to produce 'wealth' (i.e. in a ratio of 1:8 or 1:4).

	07-12-2001 00:16									#17
	Re: Re: Should production shields acumulate like in SMAC? Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by lockstep AFAIK, in SMAC only the first ten surplus shields were transferred to the next unit/improvement. The rest was lost, too. (Ten shields corresponded to the cost of the cheapest unit, BTW.)

Right! I forgot about that! But that's a good way to avoid an unbalanced factor.

	07-12-2001 22:01									#18
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	07-12-2001 22:12									#19
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quote: So I really don't see where there is the sillyness beside your own explanation!

Now, now... you'll go to bed without any supper if you keep up like that!

quote: But that's a good way to avoid an unbalanced factor.

Would that be the same "unbalancing factor" that doesn't exist outside of my "sillyness"?

Agreed though.

A good "rule" would be to say that you can only carry over as many shields as the cost of the cheapest currently available unit. That way, it isn't fixed (you get your "Industrialisation" bonus) but is still balanced IMHO.

	07-12-2001 23:58									#20
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Just a couple of quick poins:

1) All units should be upgradable, and obsolete units shouldn't even appear in the list any more. I.e., by the time you have industrialization it shouldn't even be possible to produce Warriors, for love or money. So that problem becomes a bit impossible.

2) It is actually not only possible, but very easy, to prevent accumulating more than this turn's production minus the cost of finishing that unit. So if I produce 20 shields per turn, and make a Warrior, I'd have 19 shields acumulated. If the next turn I make one more warrior, I'd still end up with 19 shields acumulated, not 38. If I make 60 warriors, over 60 turns, and my city's shield production didn't change, you guessed, I'd still end up with 19 shields acumulated. Which isn't enough to build any wonder.

	08-12-2001 03:14									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Moraelin 1) All units should be upgradable, and obsolete units shouldn't even appear in the list any more. I.e., by the time you have industrialization it shouldn't even be possible to produce Warriors, for love or money. So that problem becomes a bit impossible.

That would be great, even if what we are talking about in this thread isn't implemented in any future patch. But of course we want this implemented!

quote: Originally posted by Moraelin 2) It is actually not only possible, but very easy, to prevent accumulating more than this turn's production minus the cost of finishing that unit. So if I produce 20 shields per turn, and make a Warrior, I'd have 19 shields acumulated. If the next turn I make one more warrior, I'd still end up with 19 shields acumulated, not 38. If I make 60 warriors, over 60 turns, and my city's shield production didn't change, you guessed, I'd still end up with 19 shields acumulated. Which isn't enough to build any wonder.

Didn't get it.

	08-12-2001 03:37									#22
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Hmm... lemme try to explain a bit better. (I know I'm very bad at explaining stuff, so please be patient with me)

The idea is that the extra shields can only accumulate for 1 turn. If they're not used in the next turn, they're discarded. So producing cheap stuff (like Scouts, which only cost 1 shield) for 100 turns straight doesn't mean you accumulate 2000 shields total. You still have only the extra ones from the last turn.

Actually an even better and straightforward idea is that you can never accumulate more shields than your city produces per turn. If I produce 20 shields per turn in a city, my city can never have more than 20 shields carried over to the next project. No matter for how many turns I've produced Wariors or Souts. If I only produce 15 shields per turn, I can never accumulate more than 15. And so on.

Basically on no project can you gain more than 1 turn, as a result of shields left over from the previous production.

	08-12-2001 05:38									#23
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Hmm, I'd vote No but both of the no options have extra words added that don't apply.

	08-12-2001 08:28									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Boracks Hmm, I'd vote No but both of the no options have extra words added that don't apply.

Then you vote on the "Other" option, and explain what's on your mind about this subject!

	09-12-2001 04:44									#25
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	09-12-2001 05:09									#26
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quote: Originally posted by rid102 No, because by the Industrial/Modern period, cities tend to become stronger in production anyway. Giving production an extra bonus can and would lead to "runaway" scenarios where e.g. a city builds two or even three units per turn.

I agree with rid102.

This particular idea/problem was ventilated about a year ago, if I remember it correctly. I argued against it back then, and I havent changed my mind about it now either.

	09-12-2001 10:55									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf I agree with rid102. This particular idea/problem was ventilated about a year ago, if I remember it correctly. I argued against it back then, and I havent changed my mind about it now either.

But Ralf, I don't see this as a problem in any way! Industrious cities will have just a little more impact on the game than cities with few shields! In the number of surplus shields, of course.
Which were the arguments back then?

	09-12-2001 12:07									#28
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quote: Originally posted by rid102 Yes, I played SMAC... I wasn't aware though that it was some Holy Grail by which all other games are supposed to be measured though...

Ahhh...but it is...for very very good reason.

K

	11-12-2001 00:00									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Kromwel Ahhh...but it is...for very very good reason. K

Exactly. It became the standard for 4x turn based strategy games for the XXI century!

Right Kromwel?

	11-12-2001 01:06									#30
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I propose a new tech called "Lean Production". Logically, it belongs a few techs after "Mass Production".

Lean production, consists of among other things, just in time inventory. Just in time inventory released (lazy) working capital tied up in raw materials, semi finished, and finished goods inventories that funded the 1990's boom.

Now how to implement in CivIII?

Carry forward shields to next project

Convert surplus shields via wealth.

Either would be acceptable, but I lean towards wealth.

roadcage