05-12-2001 19:42									#1
	Looking for player opinions - CTP2 modded/civ3... Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I've been following the civ3 forums for some time now. It's hard to keep up with all of those threads, but I try...

I had been expecting to get the game for Christmas, but due to some unforseen economic issues in my life, I probably will not be getting it as a present from my family (bottom line is that my company did a major cutback on hours, so the kids will be getting presents, but neither me or my wife will exchange gifts - so no free civ3 for me).

The whole aspect suddenly becomes - 'Is civ3 worth the $50?' If I want the game, I will eventually have to buy it myself. EU2 is looking better and better. (and I did get 'Stronghold' recently - though not as good as 'Pharaoh' IMO, is still a good game)

I'm one of those people who is a fence sitter when it comes to civ3. I believe it has a lot of potential, but at the same time, I am wondering if it is worth the time and effort to start playing. Several issues, in particular are troubling, with the most critical at the top.

THE BIG 4
1. Late game system performance is horrible. 2-15 minutes per turn on good systems. (and I have a low end system PII/350, 192 RAM)
2. Extreme micromangement with workers and unit movement - no stacking.
3. Combat is broken because of the lack of firepower and a flat rate of HP for units.
4. No warning system for revolts.

THE MINOR 3
5. Corruption is unmanageable and unresolveable.
6. Very weak editor.
7. Weak tech tree.

On the plus side, the AI is supposed to be very aggressive, and the in-game atmosphere looks promising. Graphics are acceptable, with the exception of the extremely ugly road/railroad setup.

Now the patch is supposed to address many of these issues, though IMO, I do not think it will change #2 and #3, and I do not think it will be able to adequately fix #1.

My question is...
'Is civ3 a huge improvement over the modded CTP2 setup - and is the civ3 AI light years ahead of what has been accomplished in this community?'

I am posting this here, because posting this in the civ3 thread will only get a bunch of players who already have a built-in aniti-CTP bias based on playing the default game (or not playing it at all), to spout their garbage. (Not that this won't happen here)

What I am looking for are reasoned arguments from players who have played both civ3 and CTP2 Modded (and CTP2 Cradle in particular - with the recent AI SLICS from player1/Martin, which have really helped out the AI infrastructure). And please give specifics rather than the old 'CTP2 or civ3 sucks' mantra without backing up your statements.

I will admit that there are limitations in my Cradle setup that do not bother me too much, but other players may see as major game flaws. But at the same time, I am still greatly challenged by Modded CTP2 (Cradle in particular) and I still am having a blast playing my setup. (Still struggling along on 'Hard') And if there is little difference in the challenge level between Cradle/civ3, then there is no real need to get civ3.

So do my suddenly limited funds go to civ3???

	06-12-2001 18:34									#2
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hello I haven't got civ3 yet and like you want to know what its like. I played civ2 and found that slow and boring. ctp on the other hand had the map editor and the vibes I get form the people here is that civ3 editing is not good. which does not impress me much but for £35 sterling (around $52 I think) it will have to come down a lot before I pick it up. I can't even down load the videos from there site so that's how much care they put in to it.

The main point is that like the civ3 forums you will just get hardcore ctp2 and a bit of how can we get this out of civ3 to work in ctp2.

	07-12-2001 06:06									#3
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Hello Hex,

Have not been around lately, damn work banned the apolyton forums

I really like Civ 3, but all your points are valid, I think a lot of the problems that were fixed or improved in either Civ2 (firepower), SMAC (cool team and enemy interaction like with the UN), CTP & CTP2 (with stack combant, good editor, scripts)

Many of the things this group fixed for CTP in the first Medivial Mod are problems in Civ 3, like the tank/warroir problem. Also as with CTP 2 the AI IMO does not ever finish the job against each other, but at least they attack the human good which is more than CTP 2 did out of the box. I would like to play the modded CTP 2 again, but I would like an easier way to get all the files I need with out all the problems of it not working. Any good documentation on this since I have been gone for a while.

I think the main thing that is good IMO is that Civ 3 support will not be dropped after the first patch because all the haters of CTP will by Civ 3 no matter what and will continue to buy it so they will continue to support it.

What I find funny is everyone making fun of CTP series about the bad support and the bugs, but here comes Civ 3 and it has no muti-player and little good support so far, plus it was partially broken. Funny IMO,

The good things about CIV 3 far out way the bad things, the AI is aggresive and many of the concepts like culture work well. I like the resources a lot also even when they really piss me off. I would say buy Civ 3 if they put out a good patch and fix a few more things. The patch should fix the long time at the end and the air problem. The major thing left for the editor is the inability to place starting positions and units on the map which ruins scenarios. Plus MP in Civ 3 should eventually come out. IF ONLY ACTIVISION HAD CONTINUED TO SUPPORT CTP, they were on track to create one the the best TBS ever if the bugs and the AI were fixed.

	07-12-2001 15:32									#4
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No multiplayer as well well you know what thy are doing. they are going to make a multiplayer add on get a few more quids for it.

as for no scenarios how long are we to spend on the game for days because that's how long it took me to complete ctp2 for the first time.

	07-12-2001 19:42									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by ENGINEER I would like to play the modded CTP 2 again, but I would like an easier way to get all the files I need with out all the problems of it not working. Any good documentation on this since I have been gone for a while.

Well I do know that from a playability standpoint, my Mod is stable, and if for some reason, you are having problems, I am here to try to help out. I do not know when you last updated Cradle on your system, but I feel that Cradle, in its present form, is very good - especially with the recent addition of player1/Martin's AI Improvement SLICS.

And any additional changes to Cradle will be to the text files, so once you do the main download (approx 16MB), additional updates will be small.

Immortal Wombat has already hinted at a possible SLIC file that will simulate the need for goods to build certain units - if he can pull that off, then CTP2 looks even better to me. Locutus is also back - another positive for the community...

I do want to say that my impressions of civ3 are more positive than negative. Its just that I'm wondering if it is so much better than what I have set up in Cradle.

Given the fact that I have limited time in which to play and limited funds, why waste the money on a game that will be played once or twice and then ends up sitting on the shelf. This is why EU2 looks good to me - the game dynamics are different from CTP2/civ3.

	08-12-2001 02:36									#6
	Remove this text

Hex,

I got it working, I wish the deleys on the huts were gone, I saw a few different choices in modswapper, what are the different choices? (seafaring and such) I could not find a readme on them? I did not look too hard.

Anyone ever find a way to get the A.I. to form alliances and kick the humans butt?

	08-12-2001 03:08									#7
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quote: Originally posted by ENGINEER Anyone ever find a way to get the A.I. to form alliances and kick the humans butt?

I think Dale was working on that when he drifted away to Alt-Civs, so maybe Peter is working on getting it into the updated diplomod...

	08-12-2001 04:09									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I find that the most enjoyable thing in Civ 2 and missing from both CTP 2 and Civ III are that things change. I mean many times the AI would finish off other AI Civ's and align with others. SMAC was good with this also. Maybe Craddle takes care of this. I mean with Craddle the AI attacks the human and in Civ 3 the AI is good at attacking the human, but it seems to me that they never wipe each other out leading to a static game. Don't get me started on the AI's ICS in Civ 3, by 0 AD the whole planet is full

	08-12-2001 17:10									#9
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Well, I've had it happen a total of one time in Cradle, where the AI managed to take out a rival AI civ, so it is a rarity - too rare, IMO.

I always did like the diplomacy model in SMAC, its just that there were other things that took away from my enjoyment of that game. One of the reasons why I am taking a hard look at civ3 is that the diplomacy does seem more advanced than the CTP2 model. It's just that I think the other issues will lessen my enjoyment of the game. And now you are saying that the AI diplomacy in civ3 is a step backwards from SMAC. Interesting...

The different Modswapper settings...
Cradle of Civilization 1.2 - the basic setup

Seafarers Edition - bumps up the settings for the AI to build ships (this is experimental)

More Peaceful AI - uses Diplo 3.6. Diplo 3.5, the standard for all the other setups locks all the AIs in a warmongor state. There are very few AI/AI alliances in 3.5. I prefer 3.5 because it makes the AI even more aggressive - Dale, the creator of Diplomod, concurs.

Deity Slayer - Incorporates a set of AI Tile Improvement boosts - the AI has very good infrastructure now. Keeping up with the AI is now extremely hard in this setup. And what I have seen is once the AI does get a sizable lead, it does become more aggressive.

Finally, I usually take the attitude that it is me against all the AIs, so they are all, to a great extent, my enemies. My playing style is usually peaceful, and almost isolationist builder, and then a methodical war once I get a tech lead. I generally do not do a great deal of diplomacy (at least in the CTP series). My CTP2 setup was made to counter my own tendencies. It is very hard to play a peaceful builder in Cradle, and it is proving to be hard to catch the AI techwise.

And there is room for improvement - and from a Modder's standpoint, CTP2 is much easier to Mod...

	09-12-2001 14:34									#10
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Well Civ 3 is pretty .......Personally thats as far as it goes.I dont think the AI is that aggressive it seems to go crazy to catch workers which then leaves its units open .Air combat (I have the patch) is too strategic you have little tatical choice....Movement one by one is as the game progresses on large or medium maps an ever increasing chore..pollution is painfull it should be a straytecic effect...Land combat no finesse.....CTP2 with the mods has much more flexibility and intrest..lots of goods better dip-lomacy and even natural disasters...as for Civ 3 pluses CTP already has them Leaders armies diplomacy upgradeable units large maps etc it offers nothing more except graphics and the ability to easily edit certain parts but no SLIC...Id go for EU2 the diplomatic model is great ..Have a rest from Cradle ...then come back the work you did was great...Seperate I changed the Bombardment values as suggested with Civ 3 and work and Xmas played a little I think Im right with out bombard the AI starts assaulting with it it sits endlessly ..Ill give it a real try in the New year break

	09-12-2001 23:15									#11
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The first time I play SMAC I quit and put it on the shelf for six months, finally it clicked and I played it and enjoyed it. the dipolmancy was wonderful, simple, but understandable, IMO Civ 3 is a step back, I mean even in CTP 2 the dipolmatic game just seems stale, if a then b = c, but don't do d, kind of stuff, I wish SMAC was with the modern world and not sci fi, I enjoyed it, but it was hard to relate to

Oh well maybe Civ 3 will continue to get support and get better, you can tell it was very rushed

	10-12-2001 05:09									#12
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Mr. King

Save your money. Civ3 is a heap of rubbish.

I started a thread in the civ3 forum called 'I want my money back'. This was quite popular for a while (Sid Meyer must hate me.) It obviously struck a chord with quite a few people. I am hanging out for MOO3 now. Keep that credit card in your wallet.

	10-12-2001 17:48									#13
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I am just waiting to see the sprites come to this forum which they should like a lot too

	10-12-2001 19:41									#14
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quote: Originally posted by The Big Mc I am just waiting to see the sprites come to this forum which they should like a lot too

I have a catalog of all the CTP1 sprites/tga converted into the CTP2 format, plus I have all the ones that were created in the CTP1 Modder community.

What are you looking for?

	10-12-2001 21:19									#15
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I got most of the ctp sprites I was taking about the civ 3 sprites making an appearance

any way have you got the Saturn v it's the only one I am missing as well as any special effects and goods that change.

	11-12-2001 17:20									#16
	Got spare money?

Just to give an opinion.

Don't buy Civ 3 until civ 3 MP is released. Reason being is that you are on limited funds. I have both Ctp 2 and Civ 3. Well out of the box civ 3 is better, and there are some good new features, but the lack of modifying options is appaling, so don't buy yet. Wait and civ 3 will become much better I believe, and you will save yourelf some money, I doubt that you can have enough time to play both.

	11-12-2001 19:30									#17
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Hi,
Since you asked for an opinion here's mine.
Don't by civ3 just yet, i have both it and CTP2 and find that civ3 has just two things in it´s favor, first the concept of strategic resourses and second the Ai seems better. I play CTP2 with my own mod, based on Medmod, and to be frank still prefer it, wait and see if Civ3 becomes all it can be before wasting your resources on a game that might end up on a shelve. It's a lot less customizable, so far, has too little tile improvements (I like those), the graphics could be better, and the faults you mentioned

	22-12-2001 03:35									#18
	Tired of ads?

If you want to sit around building and talking, civ3 is brilliant. If you want to have a bit of fun by taking a walk to another part of the map and overrunning some cities, the corruption devastates your game. And not many people can resist the tempation to do that...

On another note, the micro-management i found wasnt a problem, combat can sometimes be a pain, the editors a bit naff but functional... but its the corruption that single handedly turns a brilliant game into a tedious chore

	08-01-2002 21:20									#19
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I thought I would do an update on this post.

Funny thing happened at Christmas...
I ended up getting both EU2 and civ3 for Christmas due to some work on the part of my wife and sister. Initially I had been looking forward to civ3, but due to the discussions in the civ3 forums, I cooled on the idea of playing civ3 - even to the point of asking my wife that if I was only getting one game for Christmas, I wanted EU2. Turns out that both games had already been purchased.

All I can say is that EU2 is an incredible, deep game, and it has hooked me. I'm sure that eventually I will find things that I will not like about it, but at the same time, there is a lot to learn about EU2, due to its depth, so I can see myself spending the time to learn it.

And I have been playing Stronghold - it is a lot of fun.

For the moment, I have no desire nor the time to play civ3 - so it sits on my hard drive without ever being launched.

It is encouraging to see players in the civ3 forums making their way over to the CTP2 camp too.

	11-01-2002 05:19									#20
	Suffering from ads?

I'd recommend holding off buying civ3 until we see exactly what improvements art made for the expansion pack and MP version.

	16-01-2002 04:41									#21
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I have EU1 but haven't installed it yet.
Is it worth my time? Or should I just buy EU2 and give away 1?

	16-01-2002 20:16									#22
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Supposedly, the learning curve on EU2 is easier because it includes a tutorial, which was one of the main reasons why I wanted EU2 instead of EU1.

The tutorial did help me understand the interface issues, but figuring out how it all works together only comes through gameplay.

I do wish that EU2 had some kind of in-game Great Library though.

	01-02-2002 06:56									#23
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Points 1, 2, and 6 are killer. The others have either been fixed, or are not big problems, at least in my opinion.