06-12-2001 09:40									#1
	Firaxis, please respond, RE: unfixed bug in patch?? Get a bigger avatar today!

I posted this in the main patch thread, but I believe it was lost in the flame war that yin (surprise surprise) trolled up in there, so I'm reposting here where it might be seen:

One of the largest bugs I've found in the game so far is not listed in the readme as having been fixed. If you get a tech from a goodie hut which should uncover a new type of resource, in v1.07f it does NOT do so. You are left forever not seeing horses or iron or whatever that tech should have shown you. Needless to say, this pretty well kills that game for you if you forget that this bug exists and don't reload an autosave before it scrolls off the list.

I consider this easily one of the top 5 and no mention of it at all. I severely hope that this was an oversight on the part of the readme.txt typist and not an oversight of the patch itself. PLEEEEEASE tell me this patch fixes this problem which has killed two of my games already!

	06-12-2001 10:55									#2
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

noonestupidenoughtodiscoversuchshitnowshutupandpla
ythebestgamever

	06-12-2001 12:19									#3
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Ittakessomeoneoffargreaterstupiditytoopenlydeclare
thisgameasthebestgamehever.

Bkeela.

	06-12-2001 12:26									#4
	Hanging Gardens Never Expire Bug Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Here's another bug:

It appears that the Hanging Gardens never expire. I noticed it when I captured an enemy city with the HG and I also noticed it in an AI capital when I established embassy.

	06-12-2001 12:54									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I don't know if it is the best game ever, but it is great. Butwritinglikethisisreallyirritating.

	07-12-2001 10:16									#6
	Inflate your Upload Space

Firaxis will respond again and again to questions about civ-specific starting locations, to say again and again that they can't say anything, but they won't respond to my unique in comparison complaint?

And please, people, why must you enter my thread and turn it into another flame war? >sighs<

	07-12-2001 10:45									#7
	Suffering from ads?

they only respond when they have an answer

	07-12-2001 11:16									#8
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

The reason Firaxis isn't addressing this bug is that it appears you are the only person suffering from it. I frequently play Expansionist civilizations and therefore most of my early techs come from goody huts, and I've never seen this. I frequently get The Wheel from huts and that is always followed by horses showing up on the map. I'm pretty sure I've got Iron Working from huts before too and have never had a problem where there was no iron anywhere on the map - maybe not in MY portion of the map, but that's not a bug, just a problem that has to be overcome in-game.

Try reinstalling, it could be that there's a glitch somewhere in your install, it happens.

	07-12-2001 19:05									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

You're wasting your time buddy. They don't respond - unless they can point you in the direction of the freakin' editor.

	07-12-2001 19:13									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by eRAZOR You're wasting your time buddy. They don't respond - unless they can point you in the direction of the freakin' editor.

Another IGNORANT statement made by a whiner.
If you want to critize them... fine. But at least be honest and constructive instead of lying and making stupid statements.
They have been answered many questions...
But I can understand if they don't waste their time by responding to rants made by idiots.

	07-12-2001 19:14									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

What's the point in posting something that everyone can plainly see is demonstrably false? The numerous Firaxian posts can be seen by everyone here.

	07-12-2001 19:23									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Never came across this bug either. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist though.
Over to you Firaxis.

	07-12-2001 19:28									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Ming Another IGNORANT statement made by a whiner.

Perhaps you should check the facts before insulting someone. I've approached the team in a polite manner in various threads on this forum and similar to the vast majority of posters referring more delicate issues about the game, never got a reply. Besides I'm getting a bit tired of the endless whiner accusations from fanboys like you.

quote: If you want to critize them... fine.

I did, but thanks for your permission.

quote: But at least be honest and constructive instead of lying and making stupid statements.

Who are you to determine what's stupid?

quote: They have been answered many questions...

Ok that sentence doesn't make any sense at all but in case you meant "They have answered many questions" then I can tell you: I don't care about the quantity - its the quality that matters to me and regarding Civ3 neither the game nor the postings of the dev staff shines brightly.

quote: But I can understand if they don't waste their time by responding to rants made by idiots.

Yeah, I know what you mean ... they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Sad story.

	07-12-2001 19:48									#14
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by eRAZOR Perhaps you should check the facts before insulting someone. .... Besides I'm getting a bit tired of the endless whiner accusations from fanboys like you.

right....

	07-12-2001 19:52									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

eRAZOR is funny !
Ming...... little fanboy

	07-12-2001 19:53									#16
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by MarkG right....

Exactly

	07-12-2001 19:56									#17
	What about the real trade bug? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I've never encountered the goody hut thing, but a huge bug is the 'trade with a tribe that is killed off by a third party' thing. The other civs treat you as if you broke the agreement. This is a huge bug that really affects gameplay.

I was really surprised that it wasn't among the fixes as it happens so often and damages outcomes.

	07-12-2001 19:57									#18
	Put an end to popups!

Woah, he just called Ming a fanboy!!!!!

You gonna take that from him, Ming?
eRAZOR, you ought to start packing your bags, man. Mingapoulco is lovely this time of the year!


Back to the topic, I stopped playing Civ3 awhile ago so of course i haven't seen this, but if this is indeed a proper bug, it would truly hurt one's game. So, no one else has seen this?


-FMK.

	07-12-2001 20:04									#19
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by eRAZOR Exactly

it's probable that you get my hint from the select parts of your post that i quoted...

	07-12-2001 20:22									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by MarkG it's probable that you get my hint from the select parts of your post that i quoted...

No I didn't. Unless you were trying to hint that it is a death sin to counter personal insults from a forum moderator thus resulting in a ban - in which case I wouldn't bother posting to this forum anyway.

	07-12-2001 20:42									#21
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by eRAZOR Perhaps you should check the facts before insulting someone. I've approached the team in a polite manner in various threads on this forum and similar to the vast majority of posters referring more delicate issues about the game, never got a reply.

Maybe you should check the facts before you post...
I never said that they reply to every nickle and dime question.
I was responding to the original comment that their ONLY answer to every question was "direct them to the editor"

quote: Besides I'm getting a bit tired of the endless whiner accusations from fanboys like you.

A fanboy... HA HA HA HA... again, check your facts. I've been critical of the game, especially when it comes to potential MP.
I give them credit when I see things I like, and I blast away (politely) when I see things I don't like...

quote: I did, but thanks for your permission.

Permission... nahhhhh... just the posting rules.... Something all members must follow or they will lose their posting rights.

quote: Who are you to determine what's stupid?

Just stating my opinion... just like you do.

quote: I can tell you: I don't care about the quantity - its the quality that matters to me and regarding Civ3 neither the game nor the postings of the dev staff shines brightly.

Again, just your opinion. They have tried to answer many of the questions here... taking time out of their busy day to do so. Just because you don't like the answers...

I've seen that they are more likely to answer a question if it is presented in a civil manner. They tend to ignore the "rants"... and if I were them, I would do the same.

	07-12-2001 21:50									#22
	Inflate your Upload Space

I think any company that ignores a customer is making a mistake. Some of the most valid complaints I have seen have been via a rant.

Whether the delivery of criticisms is considered civil or not, the complaint is a valid complaint. Sure, some ranters have no consideration for other peoples effort or feelings but when you are dealing with the public that is something that you accept.

Regardless of the vehicle for delivering a complaint, the flaw is still there and if a company chooses to pick what it wants to listen to then they are heading down a path of self-destruction. Just ask Lotus, WordPerfect and many others.

You cannot be afford to be elitist when you are selling a product or responsible for the marketing of said product.

If you think the people with complaints are vocal here and want to suppress said complaints, they will just take it elsewhere and that makes others exposed to said ranting. That is certainly not good for the company in question.

	07-12-2001 22:07									#23
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Herder, I have to disagree. Companies will be more successful if they listen to reasonable complaints and suggestions. Childish rants filled with insults, illogic and conspiracy theories (wishes, often) are a waste of time, as they are generally misleading and not totally earnest.

Irrational people do not act with reason and therefore do not logically follow paths that might hurt a business. They will say they hate the product more than anything in the universe and continue buying it.

It's the rational, well-thought out and well-presented complaints that carry weight because those are coupled with a predictable and negative result for the company.

It's clearly in a company's best interest to prioritize rational levelheaded complaints over maniacal rants any and everyday.

Best wishes,

P

	08-12-2001 00:20									#24
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Nice post Pachabel.

While I agree with some of your post I think you miss my point.

I never indicated that the company should act on all rants but within that rant is a complaint, whether delivered properly or not.

Is it in the best interests of the company to ignore a customer's plea, whether rantish or not? No. It isn't.

Sometimes these ranters just want their issue acknowledged, that's all and with just doing that a company can defuse a person from angry ranter to satisfied customer.

	08-12-2001 00:43									#25
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Herder While I agree with some of your post I think you miss my point. I never indicated that the company should act on all rants but within that rant is a complaint, whether delivered properly or not. Is it in the best interests of the company to ignore a customer's plea, whether rantish or not? No. It isn't.

No... I think you miss the point. Let's talk human nature here.
First... There is NO reason to ever be a JERK! Anybody that thinks that it will help their cause to be an *** is an idiot.
A company has "LIMITED" resources to address problems. Put yourself in their shoes... given a choice of addressing problems raised in a logical and polite manner, or addressing the needs of an insulting brat... which would you do if you didn't have the resources to address ALL problems.

And while I will agree that in a perfect world, it is indeed in the companies best interest to listen to all complaints... there is no such thing as a perfect world. Pissing people off is not the way to get what you want. People tend to ignore ranting crazies.

Plus, you obviously haven't read through all the threads here.
There are some people that will continue to act like jerks even if their questioned gets answered... especially when they don't like the answer.
And in some cases... the question has already been answered somewhere else, but a person is too lazy to check.
They just start a new idiotic thread using an insulting tone asking why some question hasn't been answered yet.

The company can NEVER please EVERYBODY. There is a real difference of opinion here on what will make the game perfect...

Is it asking too much for people to be civil

	08-12-2001 00:56									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Actually, Ming, I'm not sure how much bearing civility has on getting answers from Dan and Soren.

No one has been more civil toward them than I. But I have yet to get any answer to any question. Still, I understand the many reasonable possible causes for that.

But you're right about the ranting. It is like trying to reason with a man in a drunken rage.

	08-12-2001 01:21									#27
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Ming No... I think you miss the point. Let's talk human nature here. First... There is NO reason to ever be a JERK! Anybody that thinks that it will help their cause to be an *** is an idiot.

Agreed.

quote: A company has "LIMITED" resources to address problems.

That's exactly the point. And if a good software house - which is fully aware of the situtation that it cannot deliver what it is advertising should tell its customers the truth - upfront - and not knowingly trick them into bying an unfinished product - employing the well known "rush, patch later" strategy.

quote: Put yourself in their shoes...

NO, NO and again NO .. i'm in their shoes every day at work (I work as professional developer and have to deal with the exact same problems every day) ... I don't want to get into their shoes. I'm at home and now I'm just an ordinary paying customer. And I don't want to use the editor to fix the game I just want to play and have fun. Got it now?? Yes?

quote: given a choice of addressing problems raised in a logical and polite manner, or addressing the needs of an insulting brat... which would you do if you didn't have the resources to address ALL problems. And while I will agree that in a perfect world, it is indeed in the companies best interest to listen to all complaints... there is no such thing as a perfect world. Pissing people off is not the way to get what you want. People tend to ignore ranting crazies. Plus, you obviously haven't read through all the threads here. There are some people that will continue to act like jerks even if their questioned gets answered... especially when they don't like the answer. And in some cases... the question has already been answered somewhere else, but a person is too lazy to check. They just start a new idiotic thread using an insulting tone asking why some question hasn't been answered yet. The company can NEVER please EVERYBODY.

This isn't about pleasing EVERYBODY, it is about broken promises and dissapointment. I can only speak for myself, but IF Firaxis made and annoucement clarifying the situation before the release I might have said .. ok I'll wait for the patch but I own them respect for their courage but as every knows it went the other way and that's why some people among are on their personal crusade which is not targetted at Civilization III alone but against the slowly growing attitude among the developers and even more the PUBLISHERS. And the reason why many of threads were those people (won't exclude myself of course) turn into flamewars is the fact their they are desperate about those people who blindnessly support their idols without realizing that THEY in fact support what happened to Civ3 and encourage other companies to act in the same way.

quote: There is a real difference of opinion here on what will make the game perfect... Is it asking too much for people to be civil

	08-12-2001 01:28									#28
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Libertarian Actually, Ming, I'm not sure how much bearing civility has on getting answers from Dan and Soren. No one has been more civil toward them than I. But I have yet to get any answer to any question. Still, I understand the many reasonable possible causes for that.

I never said that they have answered every question
There are many questions that still need to be answered. But again, many have been answered, and sometimes it's hard to find just where they have been answered.

Frankly, I'm surprised they even still come to this site and answer any questions. With the overall "attitude" by some of the posters here, I would put posting on this site low on my priority list if I were them.

They are trying to provide some information... but they will never be able to answer every question posted here because of time constraints. They are posting here as a FAVOR to the fans, and it is NOT their sole job. They have other responsibilities to contend with.

	08-12-2001 04:36									#29
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Erazor (and partially Libertarian):

Its not Firaxis's job to listen to respond to you.

Most software companies dont waste the time taking part in things like this. So when Soren and Dan and Jeff try to answer questions and give people information and tips, you should be happy they spent their time doing something to benefit the users.

Instead, some people seem to think that if the Firaxians don't help, they are betraying their fans. And, (sorry to pick on you, I normally read your posts), Libertarian seems to feel that he has been cheated.

Think about that.

He feels cheated because one of the main game developers hasn't responded to one of his posts.

When did we turn into stuck up brats?

When I had problems with a bug in Diablo II I didn't whine when I told and didn't have anyone from the design team respond to me. But everyone expects more from Firaxis. Probably because they do more. But no company can make all of us happy.

And I honestly believe that there are some people who simply will never be happy. They will never find that amazing feeling of excitement they had when they played CivI, or CivII, or CTP. Now their expectations are so horribly high that no game will ever reach it.

If you dont find CivIII fun, then go find a game that is. Or go make one.

I'll use Blizzard again because everyone respects them as a software house. How long did it take to make Starcraft perfect? 2 years? Its been over a year with Diablo II and they are still fixing little bugs. How long do you want to wait for a game?

The game I bought was worthwhile right out of the box. Most games dont even come with editors. It was fun without changes. It wasn't always what I would have designed, but I'm no longer 5 years old, so I'm willing to accept someone elses ideas.

And finally, I find it hard to believe that you (erazor) as a developer (me too) dont understand this. I'm sure you never ship any products with unfinished functionality. No bugs either. If you actually design your own projects, you'll know that idealistic plans often dont get fulfilled the first time.

Sorry Firaxians. I'm truly sorry that you just can't make some people happy.

	08-12-2001 04:50									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by gachnar Erazor (and partially Libertarian): Its not Firaxis's job to listen to respond to you. Most software companies dont waste the time taking part in things like this. So when Soren and Dan and Jeff try to answer questions and give people information and tips, you should be happy they spent their time doing something to benefit the users. Instead, some people seem to think that if the Firaxians don't help, they are betraying their fans. And, (sorry to pick on you, I normally read your posts), Libertarian seems to feel that he has been cheated. Think about that. He feels cheated because one of the main game developers hasn't responded to one of his posts. When did we turn into stuck up brats? When I had problems with a bug in Diablo II I didn't whine when I told and didn't have anyone from the design team respond to me. But everyone expects more from Firaxis. Probably because they do more. But no company can make all of us happy. And I honestly believe that there are some people who simply will never be happy. They will never find that amazing feeling of excitement they had when they played CivI, or CivII, or CTP. Now their expectations are so horribly high that no game will ever reach it. If you dont find CivIII fun, then go find a game that is. Or go make one. I'll use Blizzard again because everyone respects them as a software house. How long did it take to make Starcraft perfect? 2 years? Its been over a year with Diablo II and they are still fixing little bugs. How long do you want to wait for a game? The game I bought was worthwhile right out of the box. Most games dont even come with editors. It was fun without changes. It wasn't always what I would have designed, but I'm no longer 5 years old, so I'm willing to accept someone elses ideas. And finally, I find it hard to believe that you (erazor) as a developer (me too) dont understand this. I'm sure you never ship any products with unfinished functionality. No bugs either. If you actually design your own projects, you'll know that idealistic plans often dont get fulfilled the first time. Sorry Firaxians. I'm truly sorry that you just can't make some people happy.

Return to your home galaxy. Thank you and bon voyage.