07-12-2001 03:19									#1
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I spare out the CSAs now. They will be discussed in part 5 seperately.

Celts

Names: Celts, the Celts, Celtic
Ruler/Title: Boadicea/ Queen?
Leaders: Vortigern, Vercingetorix, Cunobelin, Llewellyn, Grufyd
UU: Woad Warrior? (?/?/?); replaces swordsman? iron
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Democracy, Monarchy
Cities:
La Tene
Hallstatt
Tintagel
Llundain
Caer Baddon
Rhydychen
Caergrawnt
Caeredin
Catraeth
Caerloyw
Caerdydd
Ty Ddewi
Caerfyrddin
Aberteifi
Abertawe
Bangor
Caernarfon
Castell Nedd
Casnewydd
Y Trallwng
Efrog
Ynys Afallon
Manceinion
Baile Atha Cliath/Dulyn
Galatia
Numantia
Kells
Armagh
Caernarfon
Caerphilly
Chorcaí
Gaillimh
Rhymney
Iona
Rhondda
Illauntanig
Durrow
Merthyr
Tara
Llangollen
Dinas Powys
Aberystwyth
Rhayader
Abergavenny
Dinas Emerys
Llanelli
Maesteg
Reichenhall
Hallein
Hall
Alesia

Portuguese

Names: Portugal, the Portuguese, Portuguese
Ruler/Title: João II/King
Leaders: Henry the Navigator, da Gama, Cabral, Marquis of Pombal, Álvares Pereira, Alfonso de Albuquerque
UU: Nao (1/2/4[4]); replaces caravel
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Democracy, Monarchy
Cities:
Lisbon
Guimarães
Porto
Coimbra
Faro
Braga
Bragança
Santarém
Évora
Beja
Alcobaça
Viseu
Guarda
Castelo Branco
Sines
Sagres
Leiria
Viana do Castelo
Vila Real
Aveiro
Portalegre
Setúbal
Funchal
Ponta Delgada
Angra do Heroísmo
Covilhã
Sintra
Avis
Crato
Vila Viscosa
Figueira da Foz
Chaves
Portimão
Macau
Goa
Diu
Díli
São Paulo
Natal
Recife
Lourenço Marques
Luanda
Cidade da Praia
Mombaça

Dutch

Names: Netherlands, the Dutch, Dutch
Ruler/Title: William Orange /Stadtholder
Leaders: Piet Heyn, Tromp, de Ruyter, Maurice, van Speyk, Thorbecke, van Oldenbarnevelt
UU:
Ship of the Line (1/3/4[5]); replaces Galleon
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Despotism, Republic
Cities:
Amsterdam
The Hague
Rotterdam
Utrecht
Middelburg
Delft
Vlissingen
Deventer
Hertogenbosch
Maastricht
Nijmegen
Groningen
Amersfoort
Kampen
Zwolle
Leeuwarden
Haarlem
Leiden
Dordrecht
Gouda
Roermond
Alkmaar
Breda
Arnhem
Harderwijk
Zutphen
Dokkum
Enkhuizen
Sneek
Venlo
Zierikzee
Bergen op Zoom
Gorkum
Schoonhoven
Kampveere
Tilburg
Enschede
Assen
Eindhoven
Den Helder
Meppel
Delfzijl
IJmuiden
Fort Oranje
Fort Nassau
Capetown
Batavia
Pietermaritzburg
Pretoria
Almere
Lelystad


Hebrews
Names: Israel, the Hebrews, Hebrew
Ruler/Title: David /King
Leaders: Solomon, Joshua, Saul, Juda Maccabaeus, Herzl, Ben Gurion, Rabin
UU: Mercavah (?/?/?); replaces Modern Armor
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Despotism, Monarchy
Cities:
Jerusalem
Tel Aviv
Hebron
Jericho
Betlehem
Be'er Sheva
Haifa
Shchem
Tsfat
Jaffa
Nasaret
Ramat-Gan
Netanya
Eilat
Ashdod
Ashkelon
Tiberias
Shilo
Giliead
Masada
Rehovot
Gamla
Dan
Betar
Yavneh
Mizpah
Gilo
Lachish
Ramla
Lod
Efrat
Beit Shemesh
Shomron
Dimona
Bnei Brak
Arad
Ramat Hasharon
Herziliya
Ra'anana
Kfar-Sava
Rishon-Lezion
Naharia
Petah-Tikva

Wow, that's gonna be a discussion!

Last edited by Wernazuma III on 13-02-2002 at 03:36

	07-12-2001 08:31									#2
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Portugal... UU, Woad Warrior?

	07-12-2001 12:58									#3
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Mmm, how 'bout Merchantman for Dutch? I mean, as a reminder of Colonization...

	07-12-2001 13:47									#4
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quote: Originally posted by El Awrence Portugal... UU, Woad Warrior?

Oops, copied and forgot to replace

	07-12-2001 13:52									#5
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stefu: I'm still not sure. I could also think of an rifleman unit with an extra defence. AFAIK, the dutch were the first ones who mastered the drill.

	07-12-2001 18:43									#6
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Here are some changes I would like to see for the Dutch:

- Name of the Ruler should be the original name Willem van Oranje instead of the translated name 'Orange'

- Leaders: Piet Hein, Michiel de Ruyter, Maarten Tromp, Witte de With, Jan van Speyk (who were all famous admirals during the Golden Age of the Netherlands around 1600), Johan van Oldenbarnevelt (one of the great political leaders during the golden age)

- Government: I don't think Republic should be the favorable government, more likely either Monarchy (with King Willem van Oranje) or Democracy. Shunned government should probably be communism.

- Civilization abilities: Expansionist / Commercial.

- Unique Unit: I'm not sure either, during the golden age the Dutch were famous for their warfare at sea and trading all over the world with the great ships from famous compagnies like the VOC.
So I vote for VOC Ship as replacement of the Galleon, attack 1, defense 3, movement 5, carry 5 units. (Galleon has 1,2,4,4 respectively)

- Cities: the list looks rather complete, I would change The Hague to Den Haag and Hertogenbosch to Den Bosch.

Furthermore, thank you all for all the great work done already.

Remy.

	07-12-2001 19:38									#7
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Correction on Hebrews city names: there is no Ramat, and no Gan, there's Ramat-Gan

And I still think UU should be a 3.2.1 settler.

Last edited by Gholam on 07-12-2001 at 20:00

	07-12-2001 22:48									#8
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Gholam: I knew that ; And I don't think an armored settler would be good. Settlers should be always object of possible capture. With an armored settler, the Hebrews would expand way to easily and too fast (Well, in your history you did expand fast, but mostly not willingly [sorry!! ])

Remy: I'll keep english names, sorry. We've done this with all civs because we use it as lingua franca. Believe me, if it were for me, we'd have Lisboa, Den Haag, Athinai etc. etc.
I changed the gov. preferences and UU

	07-12-2001 23:49									#9
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Let's see, the Portuguese were a seafaring civ during their golden age. But based on exploration. How about a nao? They were improved caravels, maybe give them extra movement to represent the explorational abilities of the portuguese.

	08-12-2001 04:51									#10
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A few points:

I would replace 'The Hague' with Den Haag, regardless of consistency, just to create the right atmosphere. The Hague sounds far too english, Hertogenbosch at least sounds dutch.

The Portugeuse Leader is generally called 'Henry the Navigator' not 'Henry the Seafarer'.

	08-12-2001 06:09									#11
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I'll change "the Seafarer" to "the Navigator", it was due to analogy thinking from german ("der Seefahrer")

El awrence: Great idea, I'll add the Nao

	08-12-2001 06:57									#12
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No, not woad warrior. Really, too cheesey.

The chariot:

www.llyn-cerrig-bach.co.uk/chariot.htm

'From the second half of the 3 century B.C. to the 1 century B.C. a high quality Celtic glass industry emerged - this producing the best quality products of its time. Celtic military tactics also evolved. From the middle of the third century B.C. the chariot was of decreasing importance being gradually displaced by cavalry. This required a fundamental change in the method of warfare. One consequence was an increase in the length of the sword - this being extended from around 600 -700 mm in 250 A.D. to 800 - 900 mm by around 200 A.D. '

and :

www.meridies.org/as/dmir/Equestrian/1004.html

www.unc.edu/~bottaro/intropage.html

www.gallica.co.uk/celts/garton.htm

Shunned government? Could only be communism, given the individualism inherent in Celtic cultures.....

	08-12-2001 08:17									#13
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molly: I don't even have a clue, what a woad warrior is... I got this from locutus' homepage!
I don't think however we should make the chariot the celtic UU, it was a commonly used tool from china to the atlantic shores and only assyrian and egyptian chariots got some fame. Maybe a rider unit could do. The romans formed their cavalry from 140BC onwards with celtic riders (until they got better germanic riders )

	08-12-2001 08:43									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III molly: I don't even have a clue, what a woad warrior is... I got this from locutus' homepage! I don't think however we should make the chariot the celtic UU, it was a commonly used tool from china to the atlantic shores and only assyrian and egyptian chariots got some fame. Maybe a rider unit could do. The romans formed their cavalry from 140BC onwards with celtic riders (until they got better germanic riders )

Didn't mean to imply woad warrior was yr. invention- apologies.

As for the unique unit- well, both the Chinese and the Iroquois (anachronistically) have mounted units, so if the Egyptians and the Celts both have chariots, I can't see there being a great difference in that. For me, the defining weapon of war for the Celts is the war chariot, and it is of great significance in the burial sites of the Iron Age Celtic aristocracy, and in terms of Celtic artistic expression and craftwork.

'Wilkens continue: In the meantime, I have sometimes had to work back from elements known about the Celts in the Roman era'. In part III in his book, he returns to Galatea, who turns out to be a major key for the research as she will be proof that the Celts were already around in the Bronze Age - much earlier than assumed hitherto. The dynamic and inventive Celtic culture brought a certain civilization to Europe before the Greeks and the Romans. They were the first to construct harvesting implements and war chariots. They invented tools still used today, such as pincers; they had keys; they forged iron rims for their chariot wheels; they produced coats of mail. They shod their horses. These shoes, at first in bronze, were not nailed, but had rings round the edge through which a thong was passed to tie them in place. This explains the use of such expressions as horses 'with flashing feet' or 'single-hooved horses' in Homer.'

celt.net/Celtic/celtopedia/c.html

So as you can see, for me the element that best describes early Celtic success and expansion is the war chariot. With a female warrior or driver, and a spear thrower, and dependent on iron and horses, it should be distinctive enough?

	08-12-2001 13:58									#15
	Re: Extra Pack Finalization Project (Part 3) Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Hebrews Names: Israel, the Hebrews, Hebrew Ruler/Title: David /King Leaders: Solomon, Joshua, Saul, Juda Maccabaeus, Herzl, Ben Gurion, Meir, Rabin I dont think Meir should be a leader... She was nothing special CSA: Commercial, Industrious UU: Zealot (?/?/?) replaces Spearman?/Swordsman? Shunned/Favored Gov.: Despotism, Monarchy Cities: Jerusalem Tel Aviv Be'er Sheva Haifa Shechem - Shchem Hebron Joppa -Joppa? Jaffa Jericho Betlehem Nasaret Mizpah Gibeah ??? What is this place? Ezion-Geber ??? What is this place? Ramat-Gan Netanya Eilat Sena ??? What is this place? Ashdod Tvzat - Tzfat Tiberias Shilo Giliead Masada Gamla Dan Betar Yafo - Yafo and Joppa()/Jaffa is the same place Yavneh Eliat - already mentioned as Eilat

	08-12-2001 16:40									#16
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Thank you Eli! I'll fix the list.

I pretty sure that Ezion-Geber should have meant Zion Mountain.
So Geber is not the Hebrew pendant to arabic "Gebr"?

Last edited by Wernazuma III on 08-12-2001 at 16:52

	08-12-2001 17:46									#17
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quote: So Geber is not the Hebrew pendant to arabic "Gebr"?

Am I supposed to know Arabic?
Zion Mountain? Isnt this just a ... errm... well... mountain? Why should it be a city?(or am I missing something here)

And I think that the city order should be more like(and I added Ashkelon):
Jerusalem
Tel Aviv
Hebron
Jericho
Betlehem
Be'er Sheva
Haifa
Shchem
Tsfat
Jaffa
Nasaret
Ramat-Gan
Netanya
Eilat
Ashdod
Ashkelon
Tiberias
Shilo
Giliead
Masada
Gamla
Dan
Betar
Yavneh
Mizpah

	08-12-2001 22:28									#18
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On the Portuguese King, can it be João II (or John II)?
Portugal had 6 Kings named João, so keeping just that name may be confusing.

As for the Nau (it is the current Portuguese name, although in Ancient Portuguese it was, I believe, as El Aurence wrote) I think it should be a Caravel with one addicional move per turn.

On shunned government we didn't have many opinions in the Portuguese Civ thread but two of us think Communism is more correct.

In my opinion we can actually testify it in our history: although the resistance against the dictactorial Regime between 1926 and 1974 was mostly protagonized by the Communist Party, when they tried to implant a communist Regime in 1974-75 the people and the army prevented it to happen. These are just my thoughts, though. I don't know if the other Portuguese would agree with this reasoning.

	09-12-2001 06:03									#19
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Add Rehovot to list of Hebrews cities please, I won't forgive you if you don't, I live there

	09-12-2001 21:07									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns On the Portuguese King, can it be João II (or John II)?

Yes, it shall be John II, but numbers have been left out in the original civs too. It's not Elisabeth I of England, but only Elisabeth, Cleopatra VII is just Cleopatra, Montezuma II is only Montezuma, so...

Eli/Gholam: I'll fix the city list; Rehovot seems to be big enough to add it anyway...

	09-12-2001 21:14									#21
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Eli et al.: You can go on suggesting more city names. the hebrew city list is still one of the shortest...

	09-12-2001 21:40									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Gholam Add Rehovot to list of Hebrews cities please, I won't forgive you if you don't, I live there

Really? I lived there for a year.

	09-12-2001 22:42									#23
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Sena is a city in Yemen. The Lemba in South Africa, who say they are Jewish, tell of departing from Sena

	10-12-2001 05:40									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Jer8m8 Sena is a city in Yemen. The Lemba in South Africa, who say they are Jewish, tell of departing from Sena

One of those interesting occasions when oral history is 'proved' correct:

www.biblemysteries.com/library/dna

www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/familylemba.html

www.dangoor.com/72page25.html

Similarly, Irish legends/myths containing accounts of ancient roads were dismissed until evidence of ancient road systems were found well-preserved in the bogs which they crossed:

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~hgeissel/Local/Twoone.htm

	10-12-2001 22:00									#25
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Concerning the Dutch, Hoogeveen isn't a good city to include, since it is historically totally unimportant. Till WO2, it was nothing but a village. I think it should be replaced with Meppel, which is much older, and always was the centre of trade and culture in this region. It was flourishing during the time of the peat industry.

	10-12-2001 23:37									#26
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I think that a good city name to be added to the Dutch City List is New Amesterdam, because it's the colonial name of today New York!

The Dutch founded New Amesterdam which was lately captured by the english, who changed it's name to New York!
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

	11-12-2001 00:02									#27
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I decided not to include New Amsterdam because, as you might know, after having used all city names, new cities automatically get the same names just having a "New" in front of them.

	11-12-2001 01:47									#28
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For the UU of the Hebrews, I suggest a 3-3-1 replacement for the pikeman. It would reflect the ability to fight back once attacked. I would have recommended a 2.3.1, but I think that one extra attack would be useless against knights with a defense of 3. The name should also be the Macabee. Or you could leave the UU at 1.3.1, and have it treat all terrain as roads, as the Macabee's were guerilla warriors for the most part (Appropriate time of year to have this discussion). I ask for the other MOTs to give their thoughts on these suggestions.

Last edited by Solomyr on 11-12-2001 at 21:48

	11-12-2001 15:04									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III I decided not to include New Amsterdam because, as you might know, after having used all city names, new cities automatically get the same names just having a "New" in front of them.

Hmmm...sorry! Actually i didn't know that! I haven't made that many cities yet, because i only have played in tiny maps and i just make a few cities and then capture all the others!
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

	11-12-2001 17:37									#30
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Wernazuma III: Could you react to my previous post about Hoogeveen/Meppel please? Who should I ask to change the list?

Further, I think the title of the Dutch leader should be 'stadtholder', not 'king'.

Last edited by Fresno on 12-12-2001 at 02:06