07-12-2001 20:27									#31
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During combat, they'd behave the same as they do just now, except that if any units move as a result of combat (advancing or retreating), they'd automatically leave the stack.

	07-12-2001 20:30									#32
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GodSpawn,

I believe I like your implementation ideas better than my own. Thanks for sharing them with us!

	07-12-2001 20:31									#33
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quote: Originally posted by GodSpawn During combat, they'd behave the same as they do just now, except that if any units move as a result of combat (advancing or retreating), they'd automatically leave the stack.

Yeah, but I'd think that most player would rather have the units automaticly unstack before combat so they could control who attacks and at what time.

	07-12-2001 20:56									#34
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sign me up

	07-12-2001 20:59									#35
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Stack movement is a must
Don't know if I can bear the end game war tedium of moving lots of units again

	07-12-2001 21:13									#36
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You have my vote; frankly, I'm surprised this wasn't included in the patch. The other thing I don't get, related to your comment about being moved half way around the world in the middle of a battle, is why does the program skip around madly during my turn from site to site, as though it's taking some kind of inventory? Nothing happens with this, it ultimately releases control back to me, but I just don't see where this function, which occurs virtually every turn, adds anything to the experience.

	07-12-2001 21:20									#37
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Just signing in to officially join the ranks of those asking for stack movement and to pump up the post total on this thread.

My take on the combat question above is that entering combat should automatically destack units. If it doesn't do this, we will get to enjoy 10,000 threads about how it sucks that "my stack committed suicide by attacking that fortress when I mis-clicked on my movement command". We will have an additional 10,000 threads about how no one likes the order the stacked units attack in: "I wanted to attack with my obsolete units first, to soften the defenses up, and THEN with my panzers" alternated with "I realize I had artillery in that stack, but I wanted to use their bombardment ability on a different stack of units".

Trust me. Destacking the units and allowing you to attack with them individually sounds like it will waste a lot of time, but it will avoid many potential pitfalls and avoid a LOT of *****ing.

	07-12-2001 21:23									#38
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quote: frankly, I'm surprised this wasn't included in the patch

As a programmer myself, I'm not surprised at all this isn't in the patch. It isn't a "patch", you're talking about a whole additional new feature and this isn't a trivial programming exercise.

Hopefully this is something that will be included in the future as they're certainly enough people clamouring for it. I'm one of them, too. It would be nice. But it's not essential, it doesn't "break" the game, at least for me. Tedious, yes, unplayable, no.

e

	07-12-2001 21:33									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Frito Yeah, but I'd think that most player would rather have the units automaticly unstack before combat so they could control who attacks and at what time.

You're right.

	07-12-2001 21:59									#40
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Yes for Stack Movement, Please

	07-12-2001 22:14									#41
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Adding stacked combat would require changing the game's entire combat resolution system , so that's not going to happen soon.

Not sure what stacked movement would require, but I'd think you'd need an object that (a) is a container, like the Galleon, and (b) has no attack value like the Worker. So a stack couldn't attack; you'd have to ungroup and fight in the usual way.

For defense, the stack would be irrelevant, and you'd defend exactly the same as now.

You'd also need UI changes to implement this, perhaps by right-clicking and selecting from a menu (e.g., "Group/Ungroup All Units"), or maybe an "Army Manager" as in CTP2.

So it's not going to be soon, but it sounds doable. Maybe when they get around to MP.

	07-12-2001 23:07									#42
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YES, YES, YES. I also like the ideas that an earlier poster had, for a mass-waking-up option that would wake all units of a certain type. When you have a large empire, it can be hard to find all the units, and the military advisor screen is no good, because when you wake one unit, you leave the screen, making it take even LONGER.

	07-12-2001 23:26									#43
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quote: Originally posted by AHO Yes to stacking. No to armies. I never use them. I don't want valuable units stuck into an "army" stack that I can never get them out of.

There is no excuse for Firaxis not providing stacked movement functionality NOW, given the existence of the army in the game. However weak and limited their current implementation in the game, the simple fact that there already exists a way to move a stack of three units around means there is no excuse for doing it NOW.

The army can be made universaly available anytime in the game, as the BlitzMod shows (although I think Firaxis should make this a "standard option" in the game). So all that needs to be done is to raise the limit to 12, 16 or whatever works. And ensure that it permits stacking of workers!

Unstacking? Just give armies Transport capability. It may even be moddable.

Of course, this limits the importance of the Great Leader feature to wonder rushing, but that's all they are good for now, anyway.

The structure is there, why not use it?

	08-12-2001 01:02									#44
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Yep. This and hotseat multiplay.

K

	08-12-2001 01:18									#45
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Libertarian! I can't believe it! You'd like something changed? Don't you think that Firaxis and Infogrames should stick to their anarcho-capitalistic roots and charge you for said improvement at whatever the market will bear? Stacked movements are not promised in the feature list advertised to buyers. There is no law against lazy designers forcing tedium upon their end-users. Caveat emptor and all that.

So how much is it worth for you? Maybe they'll give us a break and stick it in an expansion pack 6 months from now.

Just kidding. I'm just getting back at you because I nearly fell out of my chair reading your post actually criticizing the game.

I hope that you can take a bit of ribbing.

I, too, long for stacked movement.

	08-12-2001 01:54									#46
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Signed!

This would make combat in the game so much more enjoyable. Often I try to stay out of war just because it is such a pain. I surely hope that wasn't intended.

	08-12-2001 02:10									#47
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I wonder if the firaxis playtesters enjoyed moving dozens of units from one end of the map to the other, one by one. Was there any playtesters?? Well anyway i don't and would like to see some kind of stacking system.

	08-12-2001 02:17									#48
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quote: posted by uh CLem Adding stacked combat would require changing the game's entire combat resolution system , so that's not going to happen soon.

no it wouldn't, if you moved a stack against a city instead of attacking like an army does, they could attack one at a time, so it wouldn't have to change the combat system at all

however i vote

No for now

firaxis should spend their time working on more important things since just by using the editor you can pretty much implement stacked movement by editing armies capabilities

i mean the game doesn't even have a workable scenario editor, once they do important things like that then they should implement stacked movement

	08-12-2001 02:40									#49
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scientist,

I'm afraid you've had me confused with someone else all along.

I've enumerated several criticisms of the game here and there. But I have never personalized it. I've never plastered my complaints like wallpaper all over the forum. I've never called Dan a maggot, nor expected Soren to produce a Star Trek fantasy AI.

I think I've been even-handed. I've defended the guys at Firaxis against personal attacks, but I've noted wherever and whenever appropriate any faults with the game that I have found.

	08-12-2001 02:53									#50
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yes! good gameplay != lots of mindless clicking

#1 on my wishlist for next patch: stacked movement

	08-12-2001 04:32									#51
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i'd like it before the mac version comes out

signed

	08-12-2001 05:52									#52
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I hearby sign the petition

Aloisia Vonotar

	08-12-2001 06:13									#53
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Jesus, why not start a thread titled "sign here if you are against child molestation...".

Is there ANY defendable reason to NOT want a stacked unit option? Is someone at Firaxis ACTUALLY thinking that maybe we don't want it?

Well let me disabuse them of that notion right now... EVERYONE wants the OPTION to move stacks. Everyone.

Venger

	08-12-2001 06:18									#54
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Thank you, Venger. That was stated almost without hysteria. And it is proof that the whiners and the fanboys can find common ground.

	08-12-2001 06:21									#55
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Yes, stacked movement is the most important thing right now.

	08-12-2001 06:25									#56
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I was hoping they'd add this after civ2. SMAC sorta did, but addly CTP did it best. Did you hear that Firaxis?! I said CTP DID IT BETTER. Sheesh, put it in Civ III already.

	08-12-2001 07:29									#57
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First post here in a long time, and this is a vote for some form of stacked movement (I don't need stacked action/attacks/other, just movement)

As many other do, I have a suggestion for an implementation of stacked (like) movement.

First - Just as Land units have Armies (Attacking Stacks) I would like to propose Fleets (Attacking naval stacks).

Second - I am proposing a new unit type that is a cross between a transport and an army (It should be 99% code stealing from those two units) Without a better name, I'm going to call it a 'Group'. I am proposing both Land Groups and Naval Groups. It should behave like an Army for purposes of movement points (Lowest common denominator dictates). It should behave like VERY weak transport for Building/Attack/Defense costs and ratings. If your units are inside when attacked, too bad, they are probably dead. If you attack with the Group, your units are probably dead, you should have unloaded them first.

I think this solves the problem of stacking in a code limited way. Only 3 new units are created. No game mechanics code needs to be changed (Other than needed to cause the AI's to use them, but since 2 of the 3 offer no strategic benefit, the AI doesn't need them and the AI already knows how to use Armies.... might be simply implemented with an "IS_ARMY" flag or something similar.)

This simple 'unit based' solution would let us 'store' groups of 10 units or so in our internal cities for quick response to the front or for easier pre-attack positioning for our invasion plans.

Perhaps, someone could implement this as a user MOD until a true stacking patch comes along, or perhaps it could even be the final official solution (though I imagine it will still leave many people wanting true stacked movement (and the inherent safety in numbers associated with it))

That's all for now

Kevin

	08-12-2001 08:55									#58
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Yes, put my name down . I started the poll that GodSpawn referenced (on the first page of this thread) -- it makes my feelings pretty clear . I believe the last results I saw were over 160 people having answered, all but 10 or so asking for Stacked Movement in some form (note that I think there was a bug with the polling process where two votes were registered for every one; if so, I think some parts of this poll may have been affected).

-- adaMada