07-12-2001 15:53									#1
	Sign in here if you want stack movement Get a bigger avatar today!

It's no secret that I've been a fairly staunch defender of the guys at Firaxis (despite the dearth of acknowledgement from them).

One matter puzzles me, though. If you've played the game at all beyond the opening stages, a single unmet need stands out above all others so much that the desire for it occupies nearly all your thought as you trudge your way through a turn.

Stack movement.

I waited until the patch to comment, and I also waited until the topic was raised after the patch. But on this item, no one at Firaxis, to my knowledge, has ever responded, even though it has been brought up again and again and again. As fun and satisfactory as Civ is, this single item manages to poke a dagger into an otherwise wonderful experience. I believe it was Venger who aptly described it as sucking out his life's blood.

Firaxis, what gives?

On a related note, why do you yank us away from an unfinished stack that's in the middle of a battle to an irrelevant woker on the other side of the world?

	07-12-2001 16:07									#2
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Definitely - stacked movement is a must

	07-12-2001 16:29									#3
	definitely Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Having been used to stacking with the CTPs, I find it very disturbing having to move each unit separately. This "feature" has pretty much stopped me from playing the game, which is a shame, since I otherwise like it...

	07-12-2001 16:32									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Hell yeah!!

Since post-patch automated workers stay automated, i can Shift-A them and have them hide in cities until a square is polluted. My major end-game micromanagement concern is now moving my units.

There are three basic things i would like to minimise end-game micromanagement:

1) Allow stack movement. This includes both ground and naval units (obviously not in the same stacks ).

2) Allow me to wake all units of a certain type: ie when a war is declared, have a command that i can wake all swordsmen/artillery/tanks/battleships/etc. Rather than having to manually go through all cities they are fortified in (or press space a thousand times each turn to keep them awake). The only similar thing is when upgrading all [spearmen] or whatever, which wakes all (previously) spearmen units.

3) Make a "Repeat previous command" command. Say i woke all my tanks, and want to move them to a city near the front (from different cities), or i wanted to move all my bombers to a city near the front (as aircraft cant be stack-moved, but need to do a rebase command). Rather than drudgey micromanagement, we could move the first unit (goto for the tank, or rebase to a city for bomber) and just hit the "Repeat" key for the other units. This command would have to remember the target tile as well.

By adding these three options, Firaxis could all but eliminate the end-game micromanagement that has plagued this type game since its inception.

Last edited by Skanky Burns on 07-12-2001 at 17:02

	07-12-2001 16:36									#5
	Got spare money?

4) Map markers

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=37135

	07-12-2001 16:40									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

signing..

	07-12-2001 16:41									#7
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Bah! You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. Here you are complaining about stacked movements and then you call me a perfectionist. Cross your fingers that someone at Firaxis will read your thread because stacked units is another thing the guys at Firaxis regularly fail to comment on.

	07-12-2001 16:51									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Amen, this is the single worst flaw in Civ3.

/dev

	07-12-2001 17:13									#9
	Support Apolyton

Who could NOT want stacked movement ???



Signing in.

	07-12-2001 17:15									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

NO, I do NOT want stack movement, it will RUIN THE GAME.

	07-12-2001 17:38									#11
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Amen. Stack movement would be totally great.

	07-12-2001 17:42									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Were to sign? Stack movement would be great

	07-12-2001 17:45									#13
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Stack movement *IS* in the game.

Well, it's in the readme, lol.

That's close, right?

YES, to stack movement implementation.

	07-12-2001 18:02									#14
	Get a bigger avatar today!

It's a great game - but micromanaging units in a big end-game war is the game's undoing, and always has been.

After 10 years of Civ, you would have thought some developer would have got on the case and sorted it as a central part of the feature-set - as it seems (i never played it) CTP did...

Sign me up!

	07-12-2001 18:06									#15
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

How could they DO stack movement? The reason they are not replying is that it would be a new feature for the game, with new keystrokes, etc. Or maybe they just can't figure out how to do it?

Think about it: You make a stack of things you want to move all at once, and you move the towards a enemy city. Ok, everything is fine so far. (first question: how do you get them into a stack? How does the game know that *these certain units* are in a stack? Maybe when a unit is active, it has a option "add to stack" you can click on? Then if there are multiple stacks in that square, it shows a little pop-up window with a list of the stacks and mini-icons of the units in the stacks... just a thought!)
So you get to the enemy city, and decide to attack.... what now? Does the stack "de-stack" and turn into individual units? Does it act like Civ2, where the most powerful unit fights, and if it loses, you lose the whole stack? What?

Just some questions. But you can see, it could get very complex. I think it is too much of a change for Firaxis to contemplate, and thier lack of comment says to me we are not going to see it. Think about it: If they came out and said "It will *NOT* happen!" we would all be mad.

I think they should make up their minds, and tell us, one way or another. It's not fair to keep us in the air when they know that many people want this feature.

	07-12-2001 18:14									#16
	Suffering from ads?

Someone at Firaxis must have decided that moving 50+ units seperately is FUN....

Obviously my point is that it is impossible for me to understand that they decided not to implement this feature, or worse: that they never came up with the idea... or even worse: THAT THEY DIDN'T INTRODUCE IT IN THE UPCOMING PATCH!

Whatever happened to common sense???

Game speed has always been most important to me, already with Civ2 I hated those endless turns where you had to move over 50 units along your (rail)roads... Now it has even become worse...

	07-12-2001 18:16									#17
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Stacking=win

even if not for attacking, just moving....

you know how hard it is to move massive armies? lol

	07-12-2001 18:25									#18
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I believe the easiest way to move a stack would be to right click on a place were there's more units and then choose the "move stack" option. Then there shows a goto thing (like the "g" key). This will then ofcause not allow them to attack.

Doing it this way they wont be assigned to any stack, after moving the stack they are out of the stack again and act as usual

	07-12-2001 18:30									#19
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Aye, please lock stacks together.

	07-12-2001 18:39									#20
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Yes to stacking.

The basic stacking mechanism, to implement armies, is already in place. Its use needs to be expanded.

	07-12-2001 18:51									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

i gree with stacking but the point made about the potential for growing complexity is tgrue. i se it as like adding extra limbs to an animal, if the skeletal structure is not already there in the code of the game, you may as well be trying to grow an extra pair of limbs on a four legged dog.

Maybe being able to have a command that gives you the option of having the same movement command apply to all units in a stack for only the next turn?

anyway, stacking would definately be golden.

	07-12-2001 19:01									#22
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Sad that we need a petition for something so obvious.

	07-12-2001 19:07									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The only nondeterministic attribute that I can see with stack movement is in the case of units on the same stack that have different movement points (including units with the same base movement points, but with different points remaining). Determinism can be restored in this case simply by allowing the selection of only those units to move as a stack, all of which have the same movement points remaining.

It might work something like this. Click "stack movement" icon (or hot key, or whatever). A floating list appears showing all the units on the currently selected tile, grouped by unit and then movement points.

Move units:

• (5) Workers - 1
  
• (3) Workers - 0
  
• (12) Modern Armor - 3
  
• (2) Modern Armor - 2
  
• (3) Modern Armor - 0
  
• (1) Leader - 3
  

	07-12-2001 19:08									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Yes to stacking.
No to armies. I never use them. I don't want valuable units stuck into an "army" stack that I can never get them out of.

	07-12-2001 19:16									#25
	Tired of ads?

Yes! to stacks.

There was a poll here a while ago about this, which I have just shamelessly bumped.

My own take on the mechanics of stacked movement was like this (but it could be improved):

* Groups are unlocked by default.

* You lock or unlock a group by right-clicking it and selecting "lock" or "unlock". Only one option will appear, depending upon the lock status of the selected group. No lock option will appear at all for singletons.

* Members of a locked group all move together. Members of unlocked groups move indiviually.

* A locked group has a little padlock icon next to it.

* If a group or singleton STOPS (rather than passing through) on a group, it is automatically added to the group.

* A group moves at the speed of its slowest member.

	07-12-2001 19:17									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by ADG I believe the easiest way to move a stack would be to right click on a place were there's more units and then choose the "move stack" option. Then there shows a goto thing (like the "g" key). This will then ofcause not allow them to attack. Doing it this way they wont be assigned to any stack, after moving the stack they are out of the stack again and act as usual

I agree, possibly including in the stack only the units shift-clicked (you sometimes do not want to move them all, do you?). It would be enough to add one line to the right-click menu and you would have then three possibilities to close the right-click menu:
a. Clicking on one of the units - only this unit gets activated
b. Shift-click several units and click the last one - a group of units gets activated and you move them one by one
c. Shift-click several units and click the new "Activate stack" menu item - a stack gets activated.
After closing the menu the "goto" thing appears, using the slowest unit's movement in case c.

This would not be that difficult, what do you think?

	07-12-2001 19:35									#27
	I'll sign here also... Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Sigh....

All I really wanted for Christmas was the ability to move an entire stack of units all at once. I'd have even accepted it if it only worked with Railroads (removes the entire concept of different movement rates), and even if only the units with the same movement points were selectable at once. Ctrl-Shift-G just isn't enough to reduce the pain of moving units throughout a RR-ed empire.

Corruption reduction/increase really didn't matter to me. Nor did the lameness of coastal fortresses (IMNSHO--to beat a navy, you better have a navy of your own). Air superiority working is a good thing. The 1000000+ gold exploit didn't matter either since I could choose not to use it. Same thing with IFE.

My main desire for the Move Stack command is to save my precious time. Like many other folks, time is certainly my most valuable commodity and spending it to move workers and units around the empire one at a time is agonizing. I purposely do not maintain a fleet of workers simply because it takes too long! Certainly the current limitations of the settler/governer automation would be nice to fix (even more time savings), but worker automation is not really a must-have in my book since I prefer to direct improvements.

So maybe next patch I'll get my wish (perhaps before the end of the year or maybe even by Xmas!)....

	07-12-2001 19:56									#28
	Put an end to popups!

Stack movement is a must !!

	07-12-2001 20:03									#29
	Here is an idea..... Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I think the game would be a lot better if leaders could be created early in the game, even in ancient times. Call them war generals or something where they can be built like any other unit, maybe cost a little more though. It would be really easy to change the code to allow this and it would allow stacked untis (Army's) instead of individual untis scattered all over the map. I would only ask that the number of units allowed in the Army be raised to at least 5 to make them more useful and an unload command so that you can keep your armies up to date. (Who wants a 2000 year old army full of warriors running around fighting infantry). I have tried to do this with the editor by using the Explorer unit as a "Military General" and making him available in the early game, but the game locked up when I tried to build one. Oh well, maybe someone else could figure it out and implement it in the next patch. Stacked units are a must!

	07-12-2001 20:21									#30
	Increase the size of your Attachments

What would happen during combat? would you have to un-stack them first?