08-12-2001 11:54									#1
	Changes the patch makes which are NOT mentioned in the Readme Put an end to popups!

While working on totally redoing my LWC mod for Civ3 I discovered many changes the patch makes, and I actually like them. I figured everyone would be interested in what I've found.

I won't post it in the other patch threads for a very simple reason: It would be dround out in all the *****ing and moaning.


Anyhow, here's what I've found:



Things I've noticed that were changed by the patch during my creation of the new version of the LWC Mod:


Civilizations:

-Multiple Civs now have altered strategys, such as England and America to produce Culture often, Iriquois producing Growth, etc.


Civilization Advances:

-From the Middle Ages on through the rest of the game the cost to research technologys has increased, but mostly starting in the Middle Ages. Here are the changes I've noticed so far:

-4 Cost: Free Artistry
+2 Cost: Monotheism, Fedualism, Chivalry, Invention
+4 Cost: Theology, Gunpowder, Chemistry, Democracy, Physics, Metallurgy, Theory of Gravity, Magnetism, Military Tradition, Scientific Method
+6 Cost: Music Theory
+8 Cost: Economics, The Corporation
+10 Cost: Sanitation
+14 Cost: Espionage
+15 Cost: Nationalism
+16 Cost: Medicine
+20 Cost: Communism
+22 Cost: Industrialization
+24 Cost: Steam Power
+28 Cost: Amphibious War
+40 Cost: Electricity, Steel, Atomic Theory, Combustion, Flight, Mass Production, Motorized Transportation, Advanced Flight
+56 Cost: Replacable Parts
+60 Cost: Refining, Electronics, Radio
+80 Cost: Fission, Space Flight, Satellites, The Laser
+100 Cost: Rocketry, Computers, Nuclear Power, Superconductor, Ecology, Synthetic Fibers, Stealth
+120 Cost: Genetics
+140 Cost: Smart Weapons
+160 Cost: Miniaturization, Robotics
+200 Cost: Integrated Defense


All unmentioned technologys were not changed.


Difficulty:

-Warlord:

Optimum City Percentage (OCP) increased by 1 (making it a tiny bit easier).

-Regent:

OCP increased by 2 (making it a tiny bit easier).

-Monarchy:

Free offensive units +1.
Free defensive units +1.
OCP +4.

-Emperor

Offensive +2.
Defensive +1.
Recieves an extra free Worker.
OCP +5.

-Deity

Offensive +5.
Defensive +2.
Extra worker.
OCP +1.


General Settings:

-Base Citizen and Building defense now 8 instead of 4 (number used in calculating defense from bomardment).


Improvement or Wonder:

I have no idea because I've modd'ed the hell out of this tab


Units:

Same with the above.


Worker Jobs:

And again with the above...


World Sizes:

-On Tiny and Smalll sizes the Optimum Number of Cities has increased.

-On Tiny and Small you research techs faster.

-On Large and Huge you research techs slower.



[EDIT]I grabbed what I think is an original .bic (it's mostly unchanged, so I believe all I've found is correct), and I figured I may as well make this totally complete. Let me know if I missed anything.


Here is the remainder of the changes I can find:


Note: Costs are as listed in the editor. The actual price in shields in the game is is x10, so a decrease in 10 is actually a decrease of 100 shields, and an increase in 2 shields means you will have to have 20 more shield to build that item.


Units:

Paratrooper: Operational Range from 4 to 6.

Horseman, Mounted Warrior, Mounted Rider: No longer has ZOC.

ICBM: Cost -10.

Submarine: Cost +2, attack +2, move +1.

Helicopter: Cost +2, operational range +2.

Privateer: Attack +1.


Worker Jobs:

No changes.


Improvements and Wonders:

Palace: -30 cost (but the cost is now dependent on the number of citys, so it actually ends up costing alot more. I believe it's based on a percentage/exponential increase based on the listed cost),

Marketplace, Cathedral: Cost +2.

Walls: There was actually no change here, but that's the problem. It may as well have a 0 bombardment defense, if I'm correct, because the default bombardment defense for a building is now 8 (up from 4). In other words, Walls have no greater bombardment defense than an Aqueduct, Marketplace, or Library. Therefore walls should now have at least a 10 bombardment defense, but that would also seem to require early bombardment units get an improvement...but what can ya do. [Shameless Plug]Other than download the LWC mod when I finish the new version, of course [/Shameless Plug]

Bank, University, Factory, Hospital, Research Lab, Mass Transit: Cost +4.

Nuclear Plant, Offshore Platform: Cost +8.

Costal Fortress: Cost -2.

Police Station: Cost +6, now reduces corruption.

Shakespeare's Theatre: Culture +2.

JS Bach's Cathedral: Culture +1.

Hoover Dam, Apollo Program: Culture -1.

Cure for Cancer: Culture -1. This makes no sense to me whatsoever, but there you go. Guess a cure for cancer turns out to be less interesting than every doctor on earth things it is :P

Forbidden Palace: Culture -1. I never noticed it previously produced 3 culture, which is more than the Palace itself...

Last edited by Plutarck on 09-12-2001 at 09:19

	08-12-2001 12:00									#2
	Good to Know Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Certainly some nice information to know, Plutarck.

Thanks for taking the time to post this!

- Ash

	08-12-2001 12:10									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

This is just an impression after one game, but unless Ive been very lucky for the past few weeks and was very, very unlucky tonight, the ai is drastically alterred :P

I just had the freaking Babylonians kick my arse on warlord, mostly cause I underestimated them majorlly. It was just me and them on a landmass, I had about 8 cities (large map, arid, 80% water, continents), but almost all of my land was solid desert, they had the more fertil land to the north.

I noticed early on they was being real annoying about trading, no more would they trade me tech for gold However, offer them a tech...and they'd bite quick. Eventually they demanded literature from me...I looked at my cities, saw 2 or spearmen per city, and around 8 swordsman in the closest city to their civ (I was planning an assault later), and laughed. I told them to do their worst thinking it was a bluff. It was NO bluff, what followed was literally about 40ish bowmen all guarded with spearmen over the mountains, I lost those heavily defended towns in about two turns, leaving me with nothing but pure desert.

Up until the patch, I had never seen the ai do anything like that Certainely not on warlord :P

At least it was fun

Btw, the Babylonians are my new most hated civ :P

	08-12-2001 12:13									#4
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Plutarck, how in the world did you figure all of that information?

That's pretty specific stuff there you posted...

	08-12-2001 12:19									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Btw, My reason for posting the story above was to ask if anyone else is noticing the ai planning wars better, or if its just my imagination.

Im pretty much 100% sure the logic it uses to decline/accept trades is changed though, since I couldnt get the babylonians to trade me freaking warrior code for 160 gold :P

	08-12-2001 12:33									#6
	Tired of ads?

Likely compensation for reduced corruption. Trying to avoid the Tanks-before-Christ thing that happened occasionally in Civ 2.

-Sev

	08-12-2001 13:11									#7
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I actually opened two instances of civ3edit, opened my old .bic and the new .bic that the patch installs, then just switched between the two programs and went through each tab and entry to see what changed.

Started noticing the changes when I was going to copy over the changes I made in the LWC mod manually, so I figured I might as well spend the extra effort and document all the changes

	08-12-2001 13:46									#8
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Thanks so much for putting that list together. That was great!

	08-12-2001 14:30									#9
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Good to see those tech costs go up, nothing bores me like tech avalanche...

And did I read that right, they made the harder levels easier to play? Free units and such?

Venger

	08-12-2001 15:31									#10
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think the free units are for the comp

	08-12-2001 17:52									#11
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A few other changes I noticed in the BIC file:

• Horseman, Mounted Warrier and Rider no longer have Zone of Control.
  
• Nuclear Sub range went from 3 to 4, cost went from 120 shields to 140.
  
• Helicopter range went from 4 to 6, cost went from 80 shields to 100.
  
• ICBM cost went from 600 shields to 500.
  
• Cost of several improvements increased 15% - 50%
  
• Culture per turn from Bach's Cathedral increased from 5 to 6.
  
• Culture per turn from Shakespeare's Theater increased from 6 to 8.
  
• Culture per turn from Hoover Dam reduced from 3 to 2.
  
• Culture per turn from Cure for Cancer reduced from 4 to 3.
  

	08-12-2001 18:04									#12
	What patch? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

How about listing everything the patch either breaks worse or does not fix at all. I am pissed at how messed up the game is after the patch. Is it just me I am not reading nothing about the problems I am having. Looks like I lost $70.00 on this game for sure unless they make some serious changes fast!
Great job listing all of the changes though!

Desert Dog

	08-12-2001 21:55									#13
	Updated! Enter the AD-FREE zone

I've now added the info for all units and buildings, so I think this is now a totally complete list for all changes visible in the .bic from the patch.


Shwew

Enjoy!

	08-12-2001 22:25									#14
	Re: Updated! Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Plutarck I've now added the info for all units and buildings, so I think this is now a totally complete list for all changes visible in the .bic from the patch. Shwew Enjoy!

The only thing I can see missing is that the Rider (Chinese UU) no longer has ZOC.

	09-12-2001 00:00									#15
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Great job! I am curious though:

"-Multiple Civs now have altered strategys, such as England and America to produce Culture often, Iriquois producing Growth, etc. "

How did you determine this? The patch only came out yesterday -- are you just reading into things? How can you tell?

Or is there actually something in the editor that shows this now?

	09-12-2001 09:00									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Added that chinese rider info, thanks for mentioning it Nero Would.


Barshy:

In the Civilizations editor you can customize such things. There is a Build Often tab, Build Never tab, etc.

That's how I knew

	10-12-2001 06:54									#17
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bump

	10-12-2001 08:22									#18
	What about the Promised Corruption Modifier? Support Apolyton

I've looked thoughout the Editor (although I do admit that I could have missed it), and couldn't find the Corruption Modifier that Was supposed to be added in the patch to the difficulty level tab. Have you seen it in your mod-ing?

Last edited by E_T on 10-12-2001 at 09:45

	10-12-2001 09:08									#19
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Yah, the OCP I mentioned is that corruption modifier.

If it's over 100 (%) then the optimum city amount will be greater than what's set on the world sizes screen, and if it's smaller the reverse will be true.


Also, I just found something new!

Now the maximum time it takes to research a Tech is 40 turns, not 32 like before!


Good to know

	10-12-2001 09:20									#20
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Plutarck Also, I just found something new! Now the maximum time it takes to research a Tech is 40 turns, not 32 like before!

Actually, that particular change *IS* listed in the readme. Hehe.

	10-12-2001 09:33									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Barshy Great job! I am curious though: "-Multiple Civs now have altered strategys, such as England and America to produce Culture often, Iriquois producing Growth, etc. " How did you determine this? The patch only came out yesterday -- are you just reading into things? How can you tell? Or is there actually something in the editor that shows this now?

There was always something in the editor that showed what the different civs were more likely to build. I hadn't noticed it in the editor since patching, but I saw it in-game.

My wife was playing, still rather early in the game, and the French build a city on a peninsula on the far side of two of her cities. I thought they weren't going to build cities where they were sure to be culturally assimilated anymore I thought. Well, before long the borders of the new French city were stretching out towards hers, they had to have built a Temple and possibly a Library pretty early in the build order. This was on Warlord.

I like the changes so far. It seems more challenging, the AI is doing a lot less of the stupid things I used to take advantage of (not exploits, but buying tech for gold, building cities for me, etc.).

	10-12-2001 09:43									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Plutarck Yah, the OCP I mentioned is that corruption modifier. If it's over 100 (%) then the optimum city amount will be greater than what's set on the world sizes screen, and if it's smaller the reverse will be true.

Are you sure? You also stated in your first post that the OCP's for Regent to Deity were changed from your original settings. If this is the Corruption Modifier that is added, then it's not much of a change. I was hoping for a way to change the overall corruption, not just when the game kicks into high corruption mode when you get too many cities.

quote: From the Civ Editor Help Percentage of Optimal Cities Determines what percentage of the optimal number of cities setting (found on the world sizes page) is actually optimal on the selected difficulty level. If this value is 100%, the optimal number of cities will be equal to the default setting for the given world size. At 50%, the optimal number of cities is halved. At 200%, the optimal number of cities is doubled. This value will not match the value on the World Sizes page exactly because the corruption setting of the player's government type is also a modifier.

I want some way to Edit the Corruption Setting for each Goverment Level (and that's what I thought that we where getting in the patch).

quote: Various Quotes from Patch Readme File Editor: Added corruption modifier to difficulty level tab. Corruption effects have been reduced. Corruption calculations for Communism are now flat for the number-of-cities factor.

I haven't noticed any differences.

E_T

	10-12-2001 11:27									#23
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Xentropy: LOL, hadn't noticed that.


E_T: When they said corruption was reduced I believe they did so for the express reason of implanting the idea so people who didn't know the specifics would think "Yeah, this corruption thing is much better"...when in reality it's just that they had gotten used to it, not that there was actually less.

The changes made are _tiny_, and according to everyone I've heard from the effects are imperceptibly small.


I too really wanted more corruption modification options with the governments. Maybe next time...


Currently there are only 4 ways to effect corruption:

Change the government option for corruption, but there are no new options.

Add flags on buildings to Reduce Corruption.

Raise the Optimum City Amount on map settings.

NEW: Raise the Optimum City Percentage on the Difficulty Settings screen.


And that, my friends, is it.

However the two "Optimum" options can have quite a bit of effect. If you raise them then the curve at which corruption increases seems to level out.

There really needs to be more customization options...but hey, what part of this game doesn't need to allow more customization?

	10-12-2001 14:49									#24
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The AI seems less likely to trade it's good techs with other civs now...I had recently built the Great Library and seemed to get less techs than I normally do when I build it - but figured, hey, maybe I'm just getting more research done (I was building libraries for culture in several cities near AI cities). But then I got the message that France had started on Sun Tzu's Art of War. I was still a ways from Feudalism, figured I would get it pretty soon because the AI was sure to trade it to someone else - well, I waited, waited, and waited - and I didn't get Feudalism until France was almost through with their wonder. Either they held off on selling that tech or I ended up waiting until someone else researched it on their own.