09-12-2001 03:10									#1
	Wonderbuilding is no fun anymore Tired of ads?

Seriously, what's the point in trying to build a wonder? Most of the time you're going to lose, since you can't rush build. A solution would be if you could concurrently build the same wonder in several cities, but of course that is not possible either.

I can't see the point in your civilization not being allowed to build a specific wonder in more than one location. (Apart from giving the computer more of an edge). Most of the time I seem to be a few turns too slow in building a specific wonder, which means I've spent oodles of turns losing shields (or money in lieu of switching to wealth).

It irks me that I *have* to build wonders in the same city - i.e. the one that has the most shield output - otherwise they will not be built at all (by me). The problem is of course even more aggravated by the fact that the era-specific techtree doesn't allow for much spread in tech advancement. Everyone pretty much gets the same techs at the same time, since the tree is essentially flat => build wonder in one city.

Another thought, (although I haven't tested it).... I seem to remember from the readme that harvesting forest only benefits you once. Does this mean you cant plant/clear forests in a particular square to speed up wonder building?

---
AZWC

	09-12-2001 03:38									#2
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Yeah, wonders suck at the start.
So I tried something new

You have to get Luxery resource to build Wonders...
I'm going to try that in my next game...
Also I have put more Luxery resource in Imporvements and Units to make the game more interesting...

In War you can't have a lot of units since you don't have all the resources
I'm working on my own mod.
Currently me and my brother are testing/playing it until I found a good balance.

	09-12-2001 03:44									#3
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What gets me is when my wife leaves sponges in the soapy water. GAHHHHHHHH! What's up with that? When you need a sponge, you have to retrieve it from the cold, soapy water. And then what?



Why can't everybody be a Melancholy?

	09-12-2001 04:00									#4
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quote: Originally posted by AZWildCat Seriously, what's the point in trying to build a wonder? Most of the time you're going to lose, since you can't rush build.

Oh yes you can - at least indirectly.

Let 4 cities closest to your Wonder-building city produce 1 worker each. Then let 2 of these workers work in tandem (= doubled improvement speed) in order to boost the shield-output of the appropriate city. Also let the other 2 workers merge their pop-points with that Wonder-building city of yours.

Voila! You city have boosted your Wonder-building population by 2 extra pops, and as a result you can harvest more shields per turn now. Of course, you can stumble into happiness-problems as well - but that can always be temporarily counteracted by other means.

	09-12-2001 04:10									#5
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Ancient era wonders are much more difficult to build than in civ2.
You must determine your wonder building city (read:lotta shields) very early. And if you commit, you are missing out on the production of that city for many turns. To get these early wonders, your third or fourth city should maybe start building a wonder.

It doesn't hurt to start on a wonder that you won't get cause you can always switch to another, and there are plenty in ancient era. I switched through 3 other wonders before getting the Great Library last night.

I like Pyramid's, Colossus, GL, and HG in ancient era. The rest aren't worth my time.

This city would ideally have many hills and bonus food tiles. Mine the hills, and use bonus food to pick up the slack.

After the ancient era I dont have much trouble getting wonders that I want. Except I can never get the damn Art of War.

	09-12-2001 06:57									#6
	Put an end to popups!

I have been playing mostly Monarch level games, and I usually have the first wonder built (out of 16 civs) AND I usually have more wonders than any of the AI players.

I don't know why people are having such trouble with getting wonders....

	09-12-2001 07:00									#7
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what, pray tell, in this game is fun, really?

they have done a great job of washing anthing interesting out of this one

	09-12-2001 07:58									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Anunikoba I have been playing mostly Monarch level games, and I usually have the first wonder built (out of 16 civs) AND I usually have more wonders than any of the AI players. I don't know why people are having such trouble with getting wonders....

You know, I was thinking the exact same thing. I typically play on Regent, and I DOMINATE the wonder-building in the game. Plus I don't do anything cheesy like chopping down forests or rush-building an improvement and then switching to the wonder.

Someone's doing something inefficiently.

	09-12-2001 08:17									#9
	Tired of ads?

Another way to rush build Wonders:

Keep your great leaders for Wonders only - don't "waste" them by forming armies. With a great leader you can rush-build a Wonder in a single turn.

This way, you get the benefit of the Wonder, your city is producing on the very next turn, and you beat all the other civs to that Wonder.

Heh. . .

	09-12-2001 08:27									#10
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quote: Plus I don't do anything cheesy like chopping down forests or rush-building an improvement and then switching to the wonder.

...maybe because it doesn't work (and never has)?

-Sev

	09-12-2001 08:33									#11
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My current monarch game I've missed every ancient wonder(didn't even try, had no chance), but I had no contact for a long time and lost my first worker to barbs in a hut.

Well, I did manage to take the oracle from the japanese(playing the egyptians). Can't finish them off yet though, because my war chariots are afraid of jungles.

	09-12-2001 09:52									#12
	Re: Wonderbuilding is no fun anymore Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by AZWildCat Seriously, what's the point in trying to build a wonder? Most of the time you're going to lose, since you can't rush build. A solution would be if you could concurrently build the same wonder in several cities, but of course that is not possible either.

I think it's totally reasonable to be limited to one city building a particular wonder at a time. How realistic is it to have 5 cities building The Pyramids (or any wonder for that matter)? It's also a way for the player to cheat or rather manipulate the rules to his/her advantage. Firaxis just cut out a loophole. It's makes the game more realistic and more challenging.
I would say that it's not so much the fact that your bothered by the one-city-one-wonder-rule but rather that the game is more difficult now because of this.
I think making the game more challenging is a good thing because people were always complaining about how stupid the AI was or how easily they could beat Civ1,2, SMAC.

Hopefully, if Firaxis continues to upgrade the editor you may be able to adjust the rules so that wonders can be built in more than one city at once. For now I guess you can only hope.

	09-12-2001 18:21									#13
	Re: Re: Wonderbuilding is no fun anymore Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Simpleton people were always complaining about how stupid the AI was or how easily they could beat Civ1,2, SMAC.

Making it harder for the human player to win isnt making the AI smarter.

Also giving the ai more bonuses isnt making him smarter.

And also to the guy who started this thread, im sorry you are no good at the game and that u cant build wonders.

	09-12-2001 18:34									#14
	Re: Wonderbuilding is no fun anymore Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by AZWildCat Seriously, what's the point in trying to build a wonder? Most of the time you're going to lose, since you can't rush build.

Most of the time you... are going to lose at building that wonder 1st... not me or Wrong Shui (prior post). I've played only 4 games & play on Regent. Monarch soon.

-Fellow AZWildcat

	09-12-2001 19:07									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Wrong_shui Making it harder for the human player to win isnt making the AI smarter.

The AI in this type of huge multioptional strategy-games has its non-negotiable limitations. You cannot compare with chess. It has only 64 squares and only 6 type of pieces, either black or white. Finally; the chessrules are few and 100% consequent.

The Civ-3 game is neither of above. Frankly, Im rather impressed that these guys managed to significantly improve the AI, the way they did. Apart from some few bugs here and there, I think they have succeeded very well.

The secret lies mostly in the fact that they have designed the game-features & ideas in such a way that a good & responsive AI becomes possible. In Civ-2 and SMAC they never did that. Two Civ-3 examples of that is the implementation of culture-resistance and no road/RR-bonus during invasion-phase.

	09-12-2001 19:15									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Sevorak ...maybe because it doesn't work (and never has)? -Sev

uh, yeah it does.

Of course, the repetitively building forests was fixed in the patch.

	09-12-2001 19:20									#17
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Nope. You could never switch to a wonder after adding shields from a forest. Not now, and not back when either.

What you could do was help rush other improvements, like libraries and such by deforesting. You could place a brigade of workers beside a city and build it up in no time flat.

That's what they stopped. At least allegedly.

	09-12-2001 19:21									#18
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Doesn't it seem strange though, to get beat out of the Great Library with say 3 turns to go, and now this huge, splendid, almost-complete structure in the middle of your city has to now be used as something like a Barracks. I feel that if you are within 10 turns of completing a wonder that another civ has finished, you should be allowed to complete that wonder, however the wonder's effects and culture would be diminished by 50%

	09-12-2001 20:20									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Feephi Doesn't it seem strange though, to get beat out of the Great Library with say 3 turns to go, and now this huge, splendid, almost-complete structure in the middle of your city has to now be used as something like a Barracks.

No, because you don't have to switch it to a Barracks or a mere improvement. If you hate losing all those shields that much switch it to your Palace until the next wonder comes along. This means you can't be building that wonder & your "palace-soon-to-be-wonder" at the same time, but that's your choice.

	09-12-2001 20:43									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Anunikoba I have been playing mostly Monarch level games, and I usually have the first wonder built (out of 16 civs) AND I usually have more wonders than any of the AI players. I don't know why people are having such trouble with getting wonders....

Why don't you post a thread on your strategy? I'm always building military units through the first round of wonder building, so I usually end up picking up something quick like the Colossus after all the good ones are gone.

	10-12-2001 06:58									#21
	Re: Your Choice Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Pyrodrew If you hate losing all those shields that much switch it to your Palace until the next wonder comes along.

You can't switch to a palace in your capital city - which is not an uncommmon place to build wonders.

	10-12-2001 07:02									#22
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Without the movies the wonders are just bland city improvements, IMO.

	10-12-2001 07:08									#23
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how many times can you stand to watch the movies?

	10-12-2001 07:48									#24
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The wonder movies used to be a welcome break and a creative injection when the intently thinking starts to get heavy. Maybe less imaginative civers didn't intercept them and their scent of historical miracles at the same level ...

	10-12-2001 08:41									#25
	Inflate your Upload Space

Most of you guys should develop your strategies. In my most recent game I tried One City Challenge at emperor level and won by cultural victory. (One City Challenge means, trying to win by building only one city!)

I built 11 wonders in a world where 3 AI civs each had around 10-15 cities. I managed to build Colossus, GL and Hanging Gardens from the ancient era.

Anybody interested can read my thread at the strategy forum, and download the saved file just before victory.

	10-12-2001 16:45									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf The secret lies mostly in the fact that they have designed the game-features & ideas in such a way that a good & responsive AI becomes possible. In Civ-2 and SMAC they never did that. Two Civ-3 examples of that is the implementation of culture-resistance and no road/RR-bonus during invasion-phase.

In other words they've made it more difficult for the human to win (or made it easier for the AI, whatever you want to call it). Designing the game rules to make it harder but making it less fun for the human player.

	10-12-2001 19:11									#27
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Ancient era wonders are a ***** to produce. I've only ever produced the Hanging Gardens and the Colosus (both very good, btw). By the time I get to Medieval (on Monarch), I have a damn good chance at getting the ones I want.

It is VERY helpful to focus your attention on several things:
First, pay attention to your science goals:
Know how to get to the tech for the wonder you want - and get there first. Additionally, when you start a wonder, and you're not sure whether you'll be the first to complete it, have a backup plan. If you're building Hanging Gardens at the end of the Ancient/beginning of the Medieval, make sure to research a new tech that will allow you to switch from HG if someone else completes it first - that way you won't waste all of those shields.

Pay DAMN close attention to the AIs building of wonders and tech. Okay, how many times have you seen it where the AIs all start the pyramids together. You have 5 civs building pyramids. Extrapolate from there: SOMEONE will finish it first - from there, the 4 other AIs are going to switch, some to Great Library, some to Great Wall, some to Oracle, etc. This means if you aren't already started on a wonder, you're not going to get some of the others. The AIs will rotate from wonder to wonder until they complete one, or there are no more left to build (at which point the AI loses its shields, too). If you know who's working on wonders, and what techs they have, it can help you keep from starting a wonder you can't finish before the AIs.

WORKERS UNITE: Don't screw around when trying to complete a wonder. Make improvements around the city building the wonder a top priority, not just with one worker, but with 4 or 5. Throughout the game, it's hard to have "too many" workers because pop limits for aquaducts and then hospitals are hard caps that you just won't be able to exceed. So make workers, and have them mine, mine, mine. Don't let wonder-building cities go into revolt. Don't chop down trees around them. And of course, choose cities for wonders that are well suited - close to capital (less corruption) with good combos of food bonus and mine bonus. Also, in the early game, consider mining more than you already are.

	11-12-2001 00:08									#28
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I guess everyone has their playstyles--almost no one has mentioned the Oracle, the one early Wonder I see as essential. (I play a peaceful building game and am a bug for happiness). I have seen that it is tougher to get wonders in Civ 3, at least until I hone my play better (on Regent right now). Therefore, I only go for the Oracle early (and have always got it so far), when I could build most Wonders in Civ 2 on Monarch.

In the next group, I like to set Sun Tzu, Leonardo's Workshop (although much weaker than Civ2) and J.S. Bach's Cathedral. The Cathedral is my number one priority, and I usually can get it and the Workshop, my number 3 priority. Like others here, I have a hard time getting the Sun Tzu.

One downside of my playstyle in Civ3 (which is generally more conducive to us peaceful builders than conquerors) is I have yet to have an early game leader for rushing Wonders, since I rarely fight other then barbarians. Come to think of it, it was the ability to rush Wonders in Civ2, more than my superior play, that enabled me to complete so many

	11-12-2001 00:20									#29
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I don't know what level you're playing on, but on Monarch I can usually build 1 sometimes 2 ancient Wonders. Should I be able to build them all? No, what challenge would that be?

Trying bumping your level down and working on your skills instead of complaining. Also keep in mind that at higher levels the computer does get a production bonus. Lastly, keep in mind its not the computer vs you. Its 7+ civs versus you and each other. So just because YOU didn't build a single ancient wonder doesn't mean the computer did, it means those other 7 civs did.

Also, try narrowing your focus. If you play as a certain civ, what wonder would most benefit you? What can you do to ensure you get it?

For what its worth, most of the ancient wonders are crap anyway. Pyramids are excellent, Colussus is pretty good, rest are crap cause they expire too soon. I'd rather spend my shields on infrastructure to get the key middle age wonders which are VERY powerful.

AZSunDevil

	11-12-2001 00:27									#30
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No you are right.Wonder building fun has been replaced with potential frustration.Not near enough time was devoted to the wonders.Not on the art,the effects,the pre-reqs or the actual construction techniques.

Dominating a wonder race on regent or monarch is nothing to brag about