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DarthVeda
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My avatar! My precious!
Jan 1970
time: 00:16
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Everybody's entitled to their opinion.
You see, if you don't accept God's love you don't get in, it's that simple. God wants you to be with him, but if you don't accept his love, that's your choice. That's one of God's greatest gifts to you, your free will.
By the same truth, you could be the Pope and not go to heaven. If you don't accept God's love, no matter how decent and worshipful you are, you are not going to Paradise.
There are plenty of people who prostrate themselves before God simply as a matter of habbit and have no real truthfullness behind it. Maybe they have accepted God's love. Maybe. Church has little to do with acceptance into Paradise.
Going to church is like going to college.
If you don't do anything with what you have learned once you pass through the doors, it's kind of worthless to have even gone...
Q: I am Catholic. And Catholics happen to be Christians, despite what Protestants may say 
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:16
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quote:
Originally posted by DarthVeda
You see, if you don't accept God's love you don't get in, it's that simple. God wants you to be with him, but if you don't accept his love, that's your choice. That's one of God's greatest gifts to you, your free will.
By the same truth, you could be the Pope and not go to heaven. If you don't accept God's love, no matter how decent and worshipful you are, you are not going to Paradise. |
Why would I deny God's love?
I'm such a lovable person, he can love me all he wants. 
But now you're going to say I have to love him back. Well, when and if I ever see him, you bet your ass I'll love him. How else am I supposed to love him if he refuses to show me he exists?
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:16
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quote:
Originally posted by DarthVeda
Ok, now how do you love him in this plane of existance? |
How do you love him? kissing his ass in prayer? Going to a church to show your determination?
quote:
Do you love your neighbor as you love yourself? |
I don't know my neighbors.
quote:
Do you love God with all your might? |
How can I love someone that doesn't want to prove himself to me? If he loved me, he'd prove he exists.
quote:
If you can answer both of these with yes, then you may very well be able to get into Paradise... it's really not that hard, it's not supposed to be.
God doesn't expect us to put on a performance every Sunday just for his amusement. If you were to go to Church, you should get something out of it, if not, don't bother. Just try to be a Christian. Just remember that not even God's closest followers, the Apostles, were expected to follow every tenet of the Jewish faith to the letter. |
If I wanted your preaching I would have allowed those Mormon Missionaries to enter the house.
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Frodo
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of Asteroid B-612
May 1999
time: 00:16
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Ramo- Er, yeah. I meant Shi, not Boob. "BD" instantly makes me think Black Dragon. Perhaps I've unconsciously banished Mr. Dornan from my mind so completely that I don't even recognize his initials when they appear. It's a comforting thought.
Wiglaf, here is the verse:
Isaiah 45:7: "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things."
So this is where I got the idea that God, well, creates evil. This doesn't necessarily conflict with the idea of original sin. God wants humanity to be like Him: Free thinkers, capable of both good and evil, able to make their own decisions, capable of doing right and also making mistakes.
In Exodus 32:12-14, Moses admonishes God for being wrathful towards his people. The response he recieves: "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
Here we have a repentant God. Again God is shown to be imperfect and making amends. But isn't this image much more compelling than that of a perfect God? Everything we see around us has some imperfection in it. Unless you seek to tell me that the 11th commandment is "Do as I say, not as I do", I don't see how following our consciences would necessarily lead us to God. All we need to do, theoretically, is examine the world and observe both the good and bad things about it.
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Wiglaf
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Cambridge
Dec 2000
time: 23:16
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- "So what you're saying is that it is possible to have a widespread religion in a few thousand years based upon the teachings of the Heaven's Gate people (remember that?). I mean, they've got tons of documentation stating that UFOs are going to come pick them up and whatnot. What makes reading those thousands of years from now less valid than reading the crap religions use now?" -
If they want to worship little green men, more power to them. It isn't an infused belief, UFOs are no more gods than we are, and claiming that eventually you'll be picked up or whatever is based on a steaming pile of bullshit that is in no way valid. Of course, you aren't punished out of ignorance, so if you believe in that sort of thing (which requires a rather large dumbass), you wouldn't be held responsible.
- "For all you know, you're reading some great fiction people wrote. The people wrote it could have been obsessive people like Trekkies now-a-days. They could have been complete loons, out of their mind! But because it is written down and you've been told by your ancestors to believe it, you do. You accept it on blind faith." -
There are several written sources claiming at least the existance of Jesus, there's nothing blind about saying he lived a good life.
- "You still haven't given anything but bald assertions to back your arguement about Christianity being inborn." -
If we were all naturally secular, society would really go to hell. Faast. Simple laws wouldn't be nearly enough to hold the population back from killing itself off. Somehow, though, I doubt the whole notion of Jesus began only to protect us thousands of years down the line and be our moral guide. Also, given the population density at the time in the region, and the uproar that was caused, it'd be amazing if no biblical writer actually saw Jesus.
- "If in fact you are not trolling then you'll need to convince me by a. not using thread titles that are so obviously inflammatory and b. addressing the criticisms directed at your argument instead of ignoring or dismissing them. If you are in fact just an idiot troll, then by all means continue to use inflammatory thread titles and ignore/dismiss contentious opinions." -
Wiggy got you beat again? I guess so, if that's all that you can come up with.
- "I am not going to devote a fraction of my brainpower to this arsehole. Nothing I would say would convince him, because he is away with the fairies in his own little land. Convinced senate to bomb the rest of the free world yet wiggy?" -
That's a completely different issue taken out of context, and you know it. Because I won that arguement, now you've got to bring it up here to get a free shot in? Typical.
- "What love? If God loved me, he'd give me my damned Ferrari." -
He gave us free will. He doesn't cater to your ever little need, glonky, as that would destroy the purpose of an independant existance. If you want to focus on the material world, and refuse to love God, hey, he respects that. But he most certainly won't help you get to that state, and you should thank him for that.
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lightblue
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L'Boro, UK
Oct 2001
time: 05:16
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OK, I know I should resist threads like this, but the temptation is just too great. I think this post might encompass a number of wildly different points, but hey, beats having too post 3 or 4 times.
First off, to say that atheists are narrowminded is to miss the point completely. I think that most atheists (and agnostics for that matter), will have had contact with a religion (on this board probably one of the Judeo-Christian ones) and usually know quite a lot about it. The fact is that we (atheists) take on board other options (ie. we're openminded) whereas your average biblebasher does not consider the fact that he might be wrong.
With that out of the way though, I think Wiglaf might have point when he says that religious beliefs are ingrained in our system. I'll try and explain this fact, and how it doesn't oppose atheism.
I think (and have read articles) that religious experiences have played a great role in the development of modern (and not so modern) societies, and probably in the development (evolution if you will) of the human mind.
First the biological aspect: I belief that there used to be an evolutionary advantage to be part of a belief structure, but that now these genes are more of a burden, and that there are better ways of gaining the same connections. It is commonly known that most religious ceremonies have parts to it that are very ritualistic and almost trance inducing (be it a Native American rain dance or the recital of the Our Father by a large group of people). When we are in a trance state there is a large release of "feelgood" neurotransmitters like seratonin, making us feel better after we have partaken in such a ceremony. However nowadays it is possible to achieve such a state in other environments such as the chanting at a sports match or dancing at a rave, which is probably why religious belief has decreased so much in Western societies recently.
Now for the advantage of religion to societies. The fact is that the sharing of a belief structure (and opposing other belief structures) brings a society closer together. I think it might all have started fairly soon after we evolved the ability to communicate, and probably coincided with the appearance of hierarchical societies where the few ruled over the many (bit like a troop of baboons I suppose). The societies that felt strongest about their own identity, and took greater care to keep the troop together were probably the most succesful, and outcompeted minor troops and individuals for food/mating opportunities.
Moving on a bit in (pre)history, the rise of shamans and nature gods probably coincided with our increased cognitive faculties and the need for answers to explain the mysteries of our environment. This is probably the time when the first myths and stories originated to explain phenomena beyond our comprehension.
This over time evolved into a belief structure such as that seen in Ancient Egypt/Greece/Rome, where different Gods were responsible for different parts of nature. This was also the time when the first explanations were made for things for which there were previously no explanations were available. This relieved the need for a polytheistic belief structure and allowed the emergence of a monotheisitc belief structure (such as Christianity or Islam).
If you look over the last 2000 years of history you can see how these religions have united populations, though usually at the expense of another society (heathens/infidels, whatever), leading to such memorable examples of the openmindedness of christianity like the crusades, the Inquisition or the conversion by the sword of South America or Africa. Also in the feudal system, the belief that kings were appointed by the grace of God, prevented the suppressed population to rise up against them out of fear of going to Hell. The RC Church used a similar fear to ensure that it became extremely rich.
I think that the fall of the feudal systems where the few ruled the many, and the rise of mass education (and the subsequent scientific advances), are relieving humanity from its necessity to believe in an all-powerful benevolent deity. I also believe that the rapid fall of religious belief structures can only be a good thing as it will stop people picking on other people just because they have a different interpretation of the world. The key is to educate the people to start thinking for themselves, instead of letting other people do the thinking for them.
I think that's about enough for now
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Wiglaf
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Cambridge
Dec 2000
time: 23:16
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- "But did you read the rest? I am basically saying that it's evolutionary leftovers, and no longer necessary, if not actually detrimental to the functioning of a peaceful society." -
Huh? Detrimental meaning the abortion of 3400 babies a day, murder, robbery, and human cloning, by any chance? Evolution did cause us to realize there is a higher being - but God caused evolution.
Last edited by Wiglaf on 09-12-2001 at 22:53
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lightblue
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L'Boro, UK
Oct 2001
time: 05:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wiglaf
Huh? Detrimental meaning the abortion of 3400 babies a day, murder, robbery, and human cloning, by any chance? Evolution did cause us to realize there is a higher being - but God caused evolution. |
I don't see how you can blame murder and robbery on declining religious beliefs. AFAIK, murderers and robbers are as likely to be religious than not, but if you can find somewhere that atheists commit more crimes than Christians, let me know.
As for abortion, that is for another thread, but I think that being anti-choice is wrong, in the same that you'll probably find being pro-choice wrong. In short, if there's no active (responding to external impulses) nervous system, then it's just a collection of cells. Anyway what do you think of so-called "christians" who bomb abortion clinics or shoot doctors.
Human cloning (reproductive) shoudn't happen, but only because it would decrease the gene pool over time, reducing variation. Anyway I think there's a good chance that Italian doctor proposing to initiate reproductive cloning was raised a Catholic.
I am all in favour of using therapeutic cloning to generate stem cells.
I suppose it's a bit of dead end street debating this, as neither of us are likely to change their mind no matter what the other side says.  I do enjoy the intellectual challenge to come up with counterpoints, though.
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Bosh
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Taehan Mingook
Jan 1970
time: 00:16
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"God doesn't want you to go to hell. He wants you to be with him in paradise. All you have to do is accept his message, and his love."
Ah, just like OJ Simpson didn't want his wife to get killed. All she had to do was accept his love! I really don't see how a God that'll fry you for eternity unless you worship him could possibly be worthy of human worship.
"Why not be at least a Christian? Hey if you're wrong, what have you lost?"
Ah Pascal's Wager. Pascal's Wager is based on the supposition that the existance of the Christian God and complete metaphysical naturalism are the only two options, which is complete bunk. Christianity doesn't have any more evidence to back it up than a thousand other relgions. Be a Muslim, if you believe you'll get bunches of petpetual virgins, if you're wrong what have you lost? Be a Hindu, if you believe you'll get reincarnate instead of as a dung beetle, if you're wrong what have you lost? How's a man to decide?
In any case, its completely impossible for me to love a God that would prefer a selfish Pascal Wagerer over an altruistic atheist.
"Is it really that hard to have just a little faith?"
Faith is irrational.
"I really hope life hasn't made you so bitter as to reject the love of God"
I really hope life hasn't made you so bitter as to reject the love of Allah.
Isn't it really terribly arrogant so say that the only reason someone could have to not embrace your religion is a horrible life that has made you bitter? Especially when there's no evidence for said "love."
"if you don't accept his love, that's your choice."
Why? Seems horribly arbitrary.
"That's one of God's greatest gifts to you, your free will."
Free will is an illusion.
And then there's verses like:
Ephesians 1:4-5
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.
In any case I won't be going to Heaven no matter what I do now since I once mocked the Holy Spirit
Mark 3:29
But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.
Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
"It isn't an infused belief"
More bald assertions
"There are several written sources claiming at least the existance of Jesus"
No, there are several written sources that note the existance of Christians a good long time after 33 AD and mention their doctrines. None give a stred of evidence for Jesus.
"If we were all naturally secular, society would really go to hell. Faast. Simple laws wouldn't be nearly enough to hold the population back from killing itself off."
Well in the Czech Republic the population is 70% atheist, with the % reaching 90% in some areas and the population isn't killing itself off last time I check. In fact its murder rates are FAR lower than in the mostly christian USA. And even if this was true how the hell would it prove that Christianity is "inborn"?!?!?!
"Somehow, though, I doubt the whole notion of Jesus began only to protect us thousands of years down the line and be our moral guide."
Wha?
"Also, given the population density at the time in the region, and the uproar that was caused, it'd be amazing if no biblical writer actually saw Jesus."
You're presupposing that there was an "uproar."
"He gave us free will."
Ephesians 1:4-5
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.
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Wiglaf
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Cambridge
Dec 2000
time: 23:16
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- " Anyway what do you think of so-called "christians" who bomb abortion clinics or shoot doctors." -
They're fanatics, hypocrits, and morally irresponsible hell bound bastards. Just like normal muslims compared to the select few who bombed the WTC, the majority of arabs etc do not condone the attacks (that isnt a statistic, but hey); almost all christains oppose clinic bombing.
- "As for abortion, that is for another thread, but I think that being anti-choice is wrong, in the same that you'll probably find being pro-choice wrong. In short, if there's no active (responding to external impulses) nervous system, then it's just a collection of cells." -
The belief in religion would mean belief in a soul; at conception you recieve a soul; abortion is illegal in the moral world. So basically a religious society would not tolerate the deaths of children and would encourage reproduction and the survival of the species.
- "Well in the Czech Republic the population is 70% atheist, with the % reaching 90% in some areas and the population isn't killing itself off last time I check. In fact its murder rates are FAR lower than in the mostly christian USA. And even if this was true how the hell would it prove that Christianity is "inborn"?!?!?" -
If the whole world did not see anything wrong with abortion, murder, rape, etc, we'd be going downhill fast. Simple civil laws wouldn't hold people back forever. Religion is therefore inborn because it is vital to survival, much like reflex and the like.
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Scipio Centaurus
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Elvis is the only true God...
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09-12-2001 12:15
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